Matthew Barnett's Shortform

by Matthew Barnett1 min read9th Aug 2019189 comments
Crossposted from the AI Alignment Forum. May contain more technical jargon than usual.

I intend to use my shortform feed for two purposes:

1. To post thoughts that I think are worth sharing that I can then reference in the future in order to explain some belief or opinion I have.

2. To post half-finished thoughts about the math or computer science thing I'm learning at the moment. These might be slightly boring and for that I apologize.

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There is a large set of people who went around, and are still are going around, telling people that "The coronavirus is nothing to worry about" despite the fact that robust evidence has existed for about a month that this virus could result in a global disaster. (Don't believe me? I wrote a post a month ago about it).

So many people have bought into the "Don't worry about it" syndrome as a case of pretending to be wise, that I have become more pessimistic about humanity correctly responding to global catastrophic risks in the future. I too used to be one of those people who assumed that the default mode of thinking for an event like this was panic, but I'm starting to think that the real default mode is actually high status people going around saying, "Let's not be like that ambiguous group over there panicking."

Now that the stock market has plummeted, from what my perspective appeared entirely predictable given my inside view information, I am also starting to doubt the efficiency of the stock market in response to historically unprecedented events. And this outbreak could be even worse than even some of the most doomy media headlin... (read more)

Just this Monday evening, a professor at the local medical school emailed someone I know, "I'm sorry you're so worried about the coronavirus. It seems much less worrying than the flu to me." (He specializes in rehabilitation medicine, but still!) Pretending to be wise seems right to me, or another way to look at it is through the lens of signaling and counter-signaling:

  1. The truly ignorant don't panic because they don't even know about the virus.
  2. People who learn about the virus raise the alarm in part to signal their intelligence and knowledge.
  3. "Experts" counter-signal to separate themselves from the masses by saying "no need to panic".
  4. People like us counter-counter-signal the "experts" to show we're even smarter / more rational / more aware of social dynamics.

Here's another example, which has actually happened 3 times to me already:

  1. The truly ignorant don't wear masks.
  2. Many people wear masks or encourage others to wear masks in part to signal their knowledge and conscientiousness.
  3. "Experts" counter-signal with "masks don't do much", "we should be evidence-based" and "WHO says 'If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2
... (read more)
"Experts" counter-signal to separate themselves from the masses by saying "no need to panic".

I think the main reason is that the social dynamic is probably favorable to them in the longrun. I worry that there is a higher social risk to being alarmist than being calm. Let me try to illustrate one scenario:

My current estimate is that there is only 15 - 20% probability of a global disaster (>50 million deaths within 1 year) mostly because the case fatality rate could be much lower than the currently reported rate, and previous illnesses like the swine flu became looking much less serious after more data came out. [ETA: I did a lot more research. I think it's now like 5% risk of this.]

Let's say that the case fatality rate turns out to be 0.3% or something, and the illness does start looking like an abnormally bad flu, and people stop caring within months. "Experts" face no sort of criticism since they remained calm and were vindicated. People like us sigh in relief, and are perhaps reminded by the "experts" that there was nothing to worry about.

But let's say that the case fatality rate actually turns out to be 3%, and 50% of the... (read more)

4Wei_Dai1yI've moved in the opposite direction [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/RukXjEvMfqDKRJaup/what-will-be-the-big-picture-implications-of-the-coronavirus?commentId=2mcb949cKj2TxpiRK] . Please share your research?
5Wei_Dai1ySee also this story [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/world/europe/italy-coronavirus-center-lessons.html] which gives another view of what happened: BTW can you say something about why you were optimistic before? There are others in this space who are relatively optimistic, like Paul Christiano and Rohin Shah (or at least they were - they haven't said whether the pandemic has caused an update), and I'd really like to understand their psychology better.
4Dagon1yI'll take the under for any line you sound like you're going to set. "plummeted"? S&P 500 is down half a percent for the last 30 days and up 12% for the last 6 months. Death rate so far seems well under that for auto collisions. Also, I don't have to pay if I'm dead and you do have to pay if nothing horrible happens. I don't think I'd say "don't worry about it", though. Nor would I say that for climate change, government spending, or runaway AI. There are significant unknowns and it could be Very Bad(tm). But I do think it matters _HOW_ you worry about it. Avoid "something must be done and this is something" propositions. Think through actual scenarios and how your behaviors might actually influence them, rather than just making you feel somewhat less guilty about it. Most of things I can do on the margin won't mitigate the severity or reduce the probability of a true disaster (enough destruction that global supply chains fully collapse and everyone who can't move into and defend their farming village dies). Some of them DO make it somewhat more comfortable in temporary or isolated problems.
5Matthew Barnett1yThe last few days have been much more rapid. Here's the chart I have [https://i.imgur.com/ubWVlYP.png] for the last 1 year, and you can definitely spot the recent trend. According to this source [https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/], "Nearly 1.25 million people die in road crashes each year." That comes out to approximately 0.017% of the global population per year. By contrast, unless I the sources I provided are seriously incorrect, the coronavirus could kill between 0.78% to 2.0% of the global population. That's nearly two orders of magnitude of a difference. The point of my shortform wasn't that we can do something right now to reduce the risk massively. It was that people seem irrationally poised to dismiss a potential disaster. This is plausibly bad if this behavior shows up in future catastrophes that kill eg. billions of people.
4Dagon1yIt's bad if this behavior shows up in future catastrophes IFF different behavior was available (knowable and achievable in terms of coordination) that would have reduced or mitigated the disaster. I argue that the world is fragile enough today that different behavior is not achievable far enough in advance of the currently-believable catastrophes to make much of a difference. If you can't do anything effective, you may well be better off optimizing happiness experienced both before the disaster occurs and in the potential universes where the disaster doesn't occur.
9Matthew Barnett1yAre things only bad if we can do things to prevent them? Let's imagine the following hypothetical situation: One month ago I identify a meteor on collision course towards Earth and I point out to people that if it hit us (which is not clear, but there is some pretty good evidence) then over a hundred million people will die. People don't react. Most tell me that it's nothing to worry about since it hasn't hit Earth yet and the therefore the deathrate is 0.0%. Today, however, the stock market fell over 3%, following a day in which it fell 3%, and most media outlets are attributing this decline to the fact that the meteor has gotten closer. I go on Lesswrong shortform and say, "Hey guys, this is not good news. I have just learned that the world is so fragile that it looks highly likely we can't get our shit together to plan for a meteor even we can see it coming more than a month in advance." Someone tells me that this is only bad IFF different behavior was available that would have reduced or mitigated the disaster. But information was available! I put it in a post and told people about it. And furthermore, I'm just saying that our world is fragile. Things can still be bad even if I don't point to a specific policy proposal that could have prevented it.
4Dagon1yNope. But we should do things to prevent them only if we can do things to prevent them. That seems tautologically obvious to me. If you can suggest things that actually will deflect the meteor (or even secure your mine shaft to further your own chances), that don't require historically-unprecedented authority or coordination, definitely do so!
3Matthew Barnett1yIf the stock market indeed fell due to the coronavirus, and traders at the time misunderstood the severity, I say that I could have given actionable information in the form of "Sell your stock now" or something similar
3Dagon1yIf you knew that then, it was actionable. If you know it now, and other traders also do, it's not.
4Matthew Barnett1y[ETA: I'm writing this now to cover myself in case people confuse my short form post as financial advice or something.] To be clear, and for the record, I am not saying that I had exceptional foresight, or that I am confident this outbreak will cause a global depression, or that I knew for sure that selling stock was the right thing to do a month ago. All I'm doing is pointing out that if you put together basic facts, then the evidence points to a very serious potential outcome, and I think it would be irrational at this point to place very low probabilities on doomy outcomes like the global population declining this year for the first time in centuries. People seem to be having weird biases that cause them to underestimate the risk. This is worth pointing out, and I pointed it out before.
3Matthew Barnett1yAs I said, I wrote a post about the risk about a month ago...
4Dagon1yAnd how much did you short the market, or otherwise make use of this better-than-median prediction? My whole point is that the prediction isn't the hard part. The hard part is knowing what actions to take, and to have any confidence that the actions will help.
4Matthew Barnett1yIs it really necessary that I personally used my knowledge to sell stock? Why is it that important that I actually made money from what I'm saying? I'm simply pointing to a reasonable position given the evidence: you could have seen a potential pandemic coming, and anticipated the stock market falling. Wei Dai says above that he did it. Do I have to be the one who did it? In any case, I used my foresight to predict that Metaculus' median estimate [https://www.metaculus.com/questions/3529/how-many-human-infections-of-the-2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-will-be-estimated-to-have-occurred-before-2021/] would rise, and that seems to have borne out so far.
2Dagon1yI'm not sure exactly what I'm saying about how and whether you used knowledge personally. You're free to value and do what you want. I'm mostly disagreeing with your thesis that "don't worry about it" is a syndrome or a serious problem to fix. For people that won't or can't act on the concern in a way that actually improves the situation, there's not much value in worrying about it.
3Matthew Barnett1yThat's ok for most people. I can hope that bureaucrats, expert advisers, politicians and eg. Trump's internal staff don't share the same attitude.
2Dagon1yQuite. Those with capability to actually prepare or change outcomes definitely SHOULD do so. But not by worrying - by analyzing and acting. Whether bureaucrats and politicians can or will do this is up for debate. I wish I could believe that politicians and bureaucrats were clever enough to be acting strongly behind the scenes while trying to avoid panic by loudly saying "don't worry" to the people likely to do more harm than good if they worry. But I suspect not.

There's a phenomenon I currently hypothesize to exist where direct attacks on the problem of AI alignment are criticized much more often than indirect attacks.

If this phenomenon exists, it could be advantageous to the field in the sense that it encourages thinking deeply about the problem before proposing solutions. But it could also be bad because it disincentivizes work on direct attacks to the problem (if one is criticism averse and would prefer their work be seen as useful).

I have arrived at this hypothesis from my observations: I have watched people propose solutions only to be met with immediate and forceful criticism from others, while other people proposing non-solutions and indirect analyses are given little criticism at all. If this hypothesis is true, I suggest it is partly or mostly because direct attacks on the problem are easier to defeat via argument, since their assumptions are made plain

If this is so, I consider it to be a potential hindrance on thought, since direct attacks are often the type of thing that leads to the most deconfusion -- not because the direct attack actually worked, but because in explaining how it failed, we learned what definitely doesn't work.

Nod. This is part of a general problem where vague things that can't be proven not to work are met with less criticism than "concrete enough to be wrong" things.

A partial solution is a norm wherein "concrete enough to be wrong" is seen as praise, and something people go out of their way to signal respect for.

2G Gordon Worley III2yDid you have some specific cases in mind when writing this? For example, HCH is interesting and not obviously going to fail in the ways that some other proposals I've seen would, and the proposal there seems to have gotten better as more details have been fleshed out even if there's still some disagreement on things that can be tested eventually even if not yet. Against this we've seen lots of things, like various oracle AI proposals, that to my mind usually have fatal flaws right from the start due to misunderstanding something that they can't easily be salvaged. I don't want to disincentivize thinking about solving AI alignment directly when I criticize something, but I also don't want to let pass things that to me have obvious problems that the authors probably didn't think about or thought about from different assumptions that maybe are wrong (or maybe I will converse with them and learn that I was wrong!). It seems like an important part of learning in this space is proposing things and seeing why they don't work so you can better understand the constraints of the problem space to work within them to find solutions.

Occasionally, I will ask someone who is very skilled in a certain subject how they became skilled in that subject so that I can copy their expertise. A common response is that I should read a textbook in the subject.

Eight years ago, Luke Muehlhauser wrote,

For years, my self-education was stupid and wasteful. I learned by consuming blog posts, Wikipedia articles, classic texts, podcast episodes, popular books, video lectures, peer-reviewed papers, Teaching Company courses, and Cliff's Notes. How inefficient!
I've since discovered that textbooks are usually the quickest and best way to learn new material.

However, I have repeatedly found that this is not good advice for me.

I want to briefly list the reasons why I don't find sitting down and reading a textbook that helpful for learning. Perhaps, in doing so, someone else might appear and say, "I agree completely. I feel exactly the same way" or someone might appear to say, "I used to feel that way, but then I tried this..." This is what I have discovered:

  • When I sit down to read a long textbook, I find myself subconsciously constantly checking how many pages I have read. For instance, if I have been
... (read more)

I used to feel similarly, but then a few things changed for me and now I am pro-textbook. There are caveats - namely that I don't work through them continuously.

Textbooks seem overly formal at points

This is a big one for me, and probably the biggest change I made is being much more discriminating in what I look for in a textbook. My concerns are invariably practical, so I only demand enough formality to be relevant; otherwise I am concerned with a good reputation for explaining intuitions, graphics, examples, ease of reading. I would go as far as to say that style is probably the most important feature of a textbook.

As I mentioned, I don't work through them front to back, because that actually is homework. Instead I treat them more like a reference-with-a-hook; I look at them when I need to understand the particular thing in more depth, and then get out when I have what I need. But because it is contained in a textbook, this knowledge now has a natural link to steps before and after, so I have obvious places to go for regression and advancement.

I spend a lot of time thinking about what I need to learn, why I need to learn it, and how it relates to what I already know. Thi... (read more)

9NaiveTortoise2yI've also been reading textbooks more and experiencied some frustration, but I've found two things that, so far, help me get less stuck and feel less guilt. After trying to learn math from textbooks on my own for a month or so, I started paying a tutor (DM me for details) with whom I meet once a week. Like you, I struggle with getting stuck on hard exercises and/or concepts I don't understand, but having a tutor makes it easier for me to move on knowing I can discuss my confusions with them in our next session. Unfortunately, a paying a tutor requires actually having $ to spare on an ongoing basis, but I also suspect for some people it just "feels weird". If someone reading this is more deterred by this latter reason, consider that basically everyone who wants to seriously improve at any physical activity gets 1-on-1 instruction, but for some reason doing the same for mental activities as an adult is weirdly uncommon (and perhaps a little low status). I've also started to follow MIT OCW courses for things I want to learn rather than trying to read entire textbooks. Yes, this means I may not cover as much material, but it has helped me better gauge how much time to spend on different topics and allow me to feel like I'm progressing. The major downside of this strategy is that I have to remind myself that even though I'm learning based on a course's materials, my goal is to learn the material in a way that's useful to me, not to memorize passwords [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NMoLJuDJEms7Ku9XS/guessing-the-teacher-s-password] . Also, because I know how long the courses would take in a university context, I do occasionally feel guilt if I fall behind due to spending more time on a specific topic. Still, on net, using courses as loose guides has been working better for me than just trying to 100 percent entire math textbooks.
4cousin_it2yWhen I read a textbook, I try to solve all exercises at the end of each chapter (at least those not marked "super hard") before moving to the next. That stops me from cutting corners.
7Matthew Barnett2yThe only flaw I find with this is that if I get stuck on an exercise, I reach the following decision: should I look at the answer and move on, or should I keep at it. If I choose the first option, this makes me feel like I've cheated. I'm not sure what it is about human psychology, but I think that if you've cheated once, you feel less guilty a second time because "I've already done it." So, I start cheating more and more, until soon enough I'm just skipping things and cutting corners again. If I choose the second option, then I might be stuck for several hours, and this causes me to just abandon the textbook develop an ugh field [https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Ugh_field] around it.
3cousin_it2yMaybe commit to spending at least N minutes on any exercise before looking up the answer?
1Matthew Barnett2yPerhaps it says something about the human brain (or just mine) that I did not immediately think of that as a solution.
4eigen2yI was of the very same mind that you are now. I was somewhat against textbooks, but now textbooks are my only way of learning, not only for strong knowledge but also fast. I think there are several important things in changing to textbooks only, first I have replaced my habit of completionism: not finishing a particular book in some field but change, it if I don't feel like it's helping me or a if things seem confusing, by another textbook in the same field. lukeprog's post is very handy here [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/xg3hXCYQPJkwHyik2/the-best-textbooks-on-every-subject] . The idea of changing text-books has helped me a lot, sometimes I just thought I did not understand something but apparently I was only needing another explanation. Two other important things, is that I take quite a lot of notes as I'm reading. I believe that if someone is just reading a text-book, that person is doing it wrong and a disservice to themselves. So I fill as much as I can in my working memory, be it three, four paragraphs of content and I transcribe those myself in my notes. Coupled with this is making my own questions and answers and then putting them on Anki (space-repetition memory program). This allows me to learn vast amounts of knowledge in low amounts of time, assuring myself that I will remember everything I've learned. I believe textbooks are key component for this.

I get the feeling that for AI safety, some people believe that it's crucially important to be an expert in a whole bunch of fields of math in order to make any progress. In the past I took this advice and tried to deeply study computability theory, set theory, type theory -- with the hopes of it someday giving me greater insight into AI safety.

Now, I think I was taking a wrong approach. To be fair, I still think being an expert in a whole bunch of fields of math is probably useful, especially if you want very strong abilities to reason about complicated systems. But, my model for the way I frame my learning is much different now.

I think my main model which describes my current perspective is that I think employing a lazy style of learning is superior for AI safety work. Lazy is meant in the computer science sense of only learning something when it seems like you need to know it in order to understand something important. I will contrast this with the model that one should learn a set of solid foundations first before going any further.

Obviously neither model can be absolutely correct in an extreme sense. I don't, as a silly example, think that people who can't do ... (read more)

3G Gordon Worley III2yI happened to be looking at something else and saw this comment thread [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/dYWjFk84N4rn2Pw4q/raise-ai-safety-prerequisites-map-entirely-in-one-post?commentId=REAyAiKg2gLrAeR69] from about a month ago that is relevant to your post.
3G Gordon Worley III2yI'm somewhat sympathetic to this. You probably don't need the ability, prior to working on AI safety, to already be familiar with a wide variety of mathematics used in ML, by MIRI, etc.. To be specific, I wouldn't be much concerned if you didn't know category theory, more than basic linear algebra, how to solve differential equations, how to integrate together probability distributions, or even multivariate calculus prior to starting on AI safety work, but I would be concerned if you didn't have deep experience with writing mathematical proofs beyond high school geometry (although I hear these days they teach geometry differently than I learned it—by re-deriving everything in Elements), say the kind of experience you would get from studying graduate level algebra, topology, measure theory, combinatorics, etc.. This might also be a bit of motivated reasoning on my part, to reflect Dagon's comments, since I've not gone back to study category theory since I didn't learn it in school and I haven't had specific need for it, but my experience has been that having solid foundations in mathematical reasoning and proof writing is what's most valuable. The rest can, as you say, be learned lazily, since your needs will become apparent and you'll have enough mathematical fluency to find and pursue those fields of mathematics you may discover you need to know.
3Dagon2yBeware motivated reasoning. There's a large risk that you have noticed that something is harder for you than it seems for others, and instead of taking that as evidence that you should find another avenue to contribute, you convince yourself that you can take the same path but do the hard part later ( and maybe never ). But you may be on to something real - it's possible that the math approach is flawed, and some less-formal modeling (or other domain of formality) can make good progress. If your goal is to learn and try stuff for your own amusement, pursuing that seems promising. If your goals include getting respect (and/or payment) from current researchers, you're probably stuck doing things their way, at least until you establish yourself.
6Matthew Barnett2yThat's a good point about motivated reasoning. I should distinguish arguments that the lazy approach is better for people and arguments that it's better for me. Whether it's better for people more generally depends on the reference class we're talking about. I will assume people who are interested in the foundations of mathematics as a hobby outside of AI safety should take my advise less seriously. However, I still think that it's not exactly clear that going the foundational route is actually that useful on a per-unit time basis. The model I proposed wasn't as simple as "learn the formal math" versus "think more intuitively." It was specifically a question of whether we should learn the math on an as-needed basis. For that reason, I'm still skeptical that going out and reading textbooks on subjects that are only vaguely related to current machine learning work is valuable for the vast majority of people who want to go into AI safety as quickly as possible. Sidenote: I think there's a failure mode of not adequately optimizing time, or being insensitive to time constraints. Learning an entire field of math from scratch takes a lot of time, even for the brightest people alive. I'm worried that, "Well, you never know if subject X might be useful" is sometimes used as a fully general counterargument [https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Fully_general_counterargument]. The question is not, "Might this be useful?" The question is, "Is this the most useful thing I could learn in the next time interval?"
2Dagon2yA lot depends on your model of progress, and whether you'll be able to predict/recognize what's important to understand, and how deeply one must understand it for the project at hand. Perhaps you shouldn't frame it as "study early" vs "study late", but "study X" vs "study Y". If you don't go deep on math foundations behind ML and decision theory, what are you going deep on instead? It seems very unlikely for you to have significant research impact without being near-expert in at least some relevant topic. I don't want to imply that this is the only route to impact, just the only route to impactful research. You can have significant non-research impact by being good at almost anything - accounting, management, prototype construction, data handling, etc.
3TurnTrout2y“Only” seems a little strong, no? To me, the argument seems to be better expressed as: if you want to build on existing work where there’s unlikely to be low-hanging fruit, you should be an expert. But what if there’s a new problem, or one that’s incorrectly framed? Why should we think there isn’t low-hanging conceptual fruit, or exploitable problems to those with moderate experience?
2Dagon2yI like your phrasing better than mine. "only" is definitely too strong. "most likely path to"?
3Matthew Barnett2yMy point was that these are separate questions. If you begin to suspect that understanding ML research requires an understanding of type theory, then you can start learning type theory. Alternatively, you can learn type theory before researching machine learning -- ie. reading machine learning papers -- in the hopes that it builds useful groundwork. But what you can't do is learn type theory and read machine learning research papers at the same time. You must make tradeoffs. Each minute you spend learning type theory is a minute you could have spent reading more machine learning research. The model I was trying to draw was not one where I said, "Don't learn math." I explicitly said it was a model where you learn math as needed. My point was not intended to be about my abilities. This is a valid concern, but I did not think that was my primary argument. Even conditioning on having outstanding abilities to learn every subject, I still think my argument (weakly) holds. Note: I also want to say I'm kind of confused because I suspect that there's an implicit assumption that reading machine learning research is inherently easier than learning math. I side with the intuition that math isn't inherently difficult, it just requires memorizing a lot of things and practicing. The same is true for reading ML papers, which makes me confused why this is being framed as a debate over whether people have certain abilities to learn and do research.
2Chris_Leong2yI'm trying to find a balance here. I think that there has to be a direct enough relation to a problem that you're trying to solve to prevent the task expanding to the point where it takes forever, but you also have to be willing to engage in exploration

I think there are some serious low hanging fruits for making people productive that I haven't seen anyone write about (not that I've looked very hard). Let me just introduce a proof of concept:

Final exams in university are typically about 3 hours long. And many people are able to do multiple finals in a single day, performing well on all of them. During a final exam, I notice that I am substantially more productive than usual. I make sure that every minute counts: I double check everything and think deeply about each problem, making sure not to cut corners unless absolutely required because of time constraints. Also, if I start daydreaming, then I am able to immediately notice that I'm doing so and cut it out. I also believe that this is the experience of most other students in university who care even a little bit about their grade.

Therefore, it seems like we have an example of an activity that can just automatically produce deep work. I can think of a few reasons why final exams would bring out the best of our productivity:

1. We care about our grade in the course, and the few hours in that room are the most impactful to our grade.

2. We are in an environment where ... (read more)

7Raemon2yThese seem like reasonable things to try, but I think this is making an assumption that you could take a final exam all the time and have it work out fine. I have some sense that people go through phases of "woah I could just force myself to work hard all the time" and then it totally doesn't work that way.
3Matthew Barnett2yI agree that it is probably too hard to "take a final exam all the time." On the other hand, I feel like I could make a much weaker claim that this is an improvement over a lot of productivity techniques, which often seem to more-or-less be dependent on just having enough willpower to actually learn. At least in this case, each action you do can be informed directly by whether you actually succeed or fail at the goal (like getting upvotes on a post). Whether or not learning is a good instrumental proxy for getting upvotes in this setting is an open question.
5NaiveTortoise2yFrom my own experience going through a similar realization and trying to apply it to my own productivity, I found that certain things I tried actually helped me sustainably work more productively but others did not. What has worked for me based on my experience with exam-like situations is having clear goals and time boxes for work sessions, e.g. the blog post example you described. What hasn't worked for me is trying to impose aggressively short deadlines on myself all the time to incentivize myself to focus more intensely. Personally, the level of focus I have during exams is driven by an unsustainable level of stress, which, if applied continuously, would probably lead to burnout and/or procrastination binging. That said, occasionally artificially imposing deadlines has helped me engage exam-style focus when I need to do something that might otherwise be boring because it mostly involves executing known strategies rather than doing more open, exploratory thinking. For hard thinking though, I've actually found that giving myself conservatively long time boxes helps me focus better by allowing me to relax and take my time. I saw you mentioned struggling with reading textbooks above, and while I still struggle trying to read them too, I have found that not expecting miraculous progress helps me get less frustrated when I read them. Related to all this, you used the term "deep work" a few times so you may already be familiar with Cal Newport's work. But, if you're not I recommend a few of his relevant posts (1 [http://www.calnewport.com/blog/2014/06/16/my-deliberate-quest-to-read-proofs-faster/] , 2 [http://www.calnewport.com/blog/2012/11/27/some-notes-on-deep-working/]) describing how he produces work artifacts that act as a forcing function for learning the right stuff and staying focused.
4Viliam2yThis seems similar to "pomodoro", except instead of using your willpower to keep working during the time period, you set up the environment in a way that doesn't allow you to do anything else. The only part that feels wrong is the commitment part. You should commit to work , not to achieve success, because the latter adds of problems (not completely under your control, may discourage experimenting, a punishment creates aversion against the entire method, etc.).
3Matthew Barnett2yYes, the difference is that you are creating an external environment which rewards you for success and punishes you for failure. This is similar to taking a final exam, which is my inspiration. The problem with committing to work rather than success is that you can always just rationalize something as "Oh I worked hard" or "I put in my best effort." However, just as with a final exam, the only thing that will matter in the end is if you actually do what it takes to get the high score. This incentivizes good consequentialist thinking and disincentivizes rationalization. I agree there are things out of your control, but the same is true with final exams. For instance, the test-maker could have put something on the test that you didn't study much for. This encourages people to put extra effort into their assigned task to ensure robustness to outside forces.
3NaiveTortoise2yI personally try to balance keeping myself honest by having some goal outside but also trusting myself enough to know when I should deprioritize the original goal in favor of something else. For example, let's say I set a goal to write a blog post about a topic I'm learning in 4 hours, and half-way through I realize I don't understand one of the key underlying concepts related to the thing I intended to write about. During an actual test, the right thing to do would be to do my best given what I know already and finish as many questions as possible. But I'd argue that in the blog post case, I very well may be better off saying, "OK I'm going to go learn about this other thing until I understand it, even if I don't end up finishing the post I wanted to write." The pithy way to say this is that tests are basically pure Goodhardt, and it's dangerous to turn every real life task into a game of maximizing legible metrics.
2Matthew Barnett2yInteresting, this exact same thing just happened to me a few hours ago. I was testing my technique by writing a post on variational autoencoders. Halfway through I was very confused because I was trying to contrast them to GANs but didn't have enough material or knowledge to know the advantages of either. I agree that's probably true. However, this creates a bad incentive where, at least in my case, I will slowly start making myself lazier during the testing phase because I know I can always just "give up" and learn the required concept afterwards. At least in the case I described above I just moved onto a different topic, because I was kind of getting sick of variational autoencoders. However, I was able to do this because I didn't have any external constraints, unlike the method I described in the parent comment. That's true, although perhaps one could devise a sufficiently complex test such that it matches perfectly with what we really want... well, I'm not saying that's a solved problem in any sense.
2NaiveTortoise2yWeirdly enough, I was doing something today that made me think about this comment. The thought I had is that you caught onto something good here which is separate from the pressure aspect. There seems to be a benefit to trying to separate different aspects of a task more than may feel natural. To use the final exam example, as someone mentioned before, part of the reason final exams feel productive is because you were forced to do so much prep beforehand to ensure you'd be able to finish the exam in a fixed amount of time. Similarly, I've seen benefit when I (haphazardly since I only realized this recently) clearly segment different aspects of an activity and apply artificial constraints to ensure that they remain separate. To use your VAE blog post example, this would be like saying, "I'm only going to use a single page of notes to write the blog post" to force yourself to ensure you understand everything before trying to write. YMMV warning: I'm especially bad about trying to produce outputs before fully understanding and therefore may get more bandwidth out of this than others.
2Dagon2yI think you might be goodhearting a bit (mistaking the measure for the goal) when you claim that final exam performance is productive. The actual product is the studying and prep for the exam, not the exam itself. The time limits and isolated environment is helpful in proctoring (it ensures the output is limited enough to be able to grade, and ensures that no outside sources are being used), not for productivity. That's not to say that these elements (isolation, concentration, time awareness, expectation of a grading/scoring rubric) aren't important, just that they're not necessarily sufficient nor directly convertible from an exam setting.

Related to: The Lottery of Fascinations, other posts probably

When you are older, you will learn that the first and foremost thing which any ordinary person does is nothing.

I will occasionally come across someone who I consider to be extraordinarily productive, and yet when I ask what they did on a particular day they will respond, "Oh I basically did nothing." This is particularly frustrating. If they did nothing, then what was all that work that I saw!

I think this comes down to what we mean by doing nothing. There's a literal meaning to doing nothing. It could mean sitting in a chair, staring blankly at a wall, without moving a muscle.

More practically, what people mean by doing nothing is that they are doing something unrelated to their stated task, such as checking Facebook, chatting with friends, browsing Reddit etc.

When productive people say that they are "doing nothing" it could just be that they are modest, and don't want to signal how productive they really are. On the other hand, I think that there is a real sense in which these productive people truly believe that they are doing nothing. Even if their "d... (read more)

The case for studying mesa optimization

Early elucidations of the alignment problem focused heavily on value specification. That is, they focused on the idea that given a powerful optimizer, we need some way of specifying our values so that the powerful optimizer can create good outcomes.

Since then, researchers have identified a number of additional problems besides value specification. One of the biggest problems is that in a certain sense, we don't even know how to optimize for anything, much less a perfect specification of human values.

Let's assume we could get a utility function containing everything humanity cares about. How would we go about optimizing this utility function?

The default mode of thinking about AI right now is to train a deep learning model that performs well on some training set. But even if we were able to create a training environment for our model that reflected the world very well, and rewarded it each time it did something good, exactly in proportion to how good it really was in our perfect utility function... this still would not be guaranteed to yield a positive artificial intelligence.

This problem is not a superficial one either -- it is intri... (read more)

Signal boosting a Lesswrong-adjacent author from the late 1800s and early 1900s

Via a friend, I recently discovered the zoologist, animal rights advocate, and author J. Howard Moore. His attitudes towards the world reflect contemporary attitudes within effective altruism about science, the place of humanity in nature, animal welfare, and the future. Here are some quotes which readers may enjoy,

Oh, the hope of the centuries and the centuries and centuries to come! It seems sometimes that I can almost see the shining spires of that Celestial Civilisation that man is to build in the ages to come on this earth—that Civilisation that will jewel the land masses of this planet in that sublime time when Science has wrought the miracles of a million years, and Man, no longer the savage he now is, breathes Justice and Brotherhood to every being that feels.

But we are a part of Nature, we human beings, just as truly a part of the universe of things as the insect or the sea. And are we not as much entitled to be considered in the selection of a model as the part 'red in tooth and claw'? At the feet of the tiger is a good place to study the dentition of the cat family, but it is
... (read more)

I agree with Wei Dai that we should use our real names for online forums, including Lesswrong. I want to briefly list some benefits of using my real name,

  • It means that people can easily recognize me across websites, for example from Facebook and Lesswrong simultaneously.
  • Over time my real name has been stable whereas my usernames have changed quite a bit over the years. For some very old accounts, such as those I created 10 years ago, this means that I can't remember my account name. Using my real name would have averted this situation.
  • It motivates me to put more effort into my posts, since I don't have any disinhibition from being anonymous.
  • It often looks more formal than a silly username, and that might make people take my posts more seriously than they otherwise would have.
  • Similar to what Wei Dai said, it makes it easier for people to recognize me in person, since they don't have to memorize a mapping from usernames to real names in their heads.

That said, there are some significant downsides, and I sympathize with people who don't want to use their real names.

  • It makes it much easier for people to dox you. There are some very bad ways that this can manifest.
  • If
... (read more)
6Viliam2yThese days my reason for not using full name is mostly this: I want to keep my professional and private lives separate. And I have to use my real name at job, therefore I don't use it online. What I probably should have done many years ago, is make up a new, plausibly-sounding full name (perhaps keep my first name and just make up a new surname?), and use it consistently online. Maybe it's still not too late; I just don't have any surname ideas that feel right.
4jp2ySometimes you need someone to give the naive view, but doing so hurts the reputation of the person stating it. For example suppose X is the naive view and Y is a more sophisticated view of the same subject. For sake of argument suppose X is correct and contradicts Y. Given 6 people, maybe 1 of them starts off believing Y. 2 people are uncertain, and 3 people think X. In the world where people have their usernames attached. The 3 people who believe X now have a coordination problem. They each face a local disincentive to state the case for X, although they definitely want _someone_ to say it. The equilibrium here is that no one makes the case for X and the two uncertain people get persuaded to view Y. However if someone is anonymous and doesn't care that much about their reputation, they may just go ahead and state the case for X, providing much better information to the undecided people. This makes me happy there are some smart people posting under pseudonyms. I claim it is a positive factor for the epistemics of LessWrong.
3Wei_Dai1yI agree with this, so my original advice was aimed at people who already made the decision to make their pseudonym easily linkable to their real name (e.g., their real name is easily Googleable from their pseudonym). I'm lucky in that there are lots of ethnic Chinese people with my name so it's hard to dox me even knowing my real name, but my name isn't so common that there's more than one person with the same full name in the rationalist/EA space. (Even then I do use alt accounts when saying especially risky things.) On the topic of doxing, I was wondering if there's a service that would " pen-test [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetration_test]" how doxable you are, to give a better sense of how much risk one can take when saying things online. Have you heard of anything like that?
2JustMaier2yAnother issue I'd add is that real names are potentially too generic. Basically, if everyone used their real name, how many John Smiths would there be? Would it be confusing? The rigidity around 1 username/alias per person on most platforms forces people to adopt mostly memorable names that should distinguish them from the crowd.

Bertrand Russell's advice to future generations, from 1959

Interviewer: Suppose, Lord Russell, this film would be looked at by our descendants, like a Dead Sea scroll in a thousand years’ time. What would you think it’s worth telling that generation about the life you’ve lived and the lessons you’ve learned from it?
Russell: I should like to say two things, one intellectual and one moral. The intellectual thing I should want to say to them is this: When you are studying any matter or considering any philosophy, ask yourself o
... (read more)

When I look back at things I wrote a while ago, say months back, or years ago, I tend to cringe at how naive many of my views were. Faced with this inevitable progression, and the virtual certainty that I will continue to cringe at views I now hold, it is tempting to disconnect from social media and the internet and only comment when I am confident that something will look good in the future.

At the same time, I don't really think this is a good attitude for several reasons:

  • Writing things up forces my thoughts to be more explicit, improving my ability
... (read more)

People who don't understand the concept of "This person may have changed their mind in the intervening years", aren't worth impressing. I can imagine scenarios where your economic and social circumstances are so precarious that the incentives leave you with no choice but to let your speech and your thought be ruled by unthinking mob social-punishment mechanisms. But you should at least check whether you actually live in that world before surrendering.

4Viliam2yIn real world, people usually forget what you said 10 years ago. And even if they don't, saying "Matthew said this 10 years ago" doesn't have the same power as you saying the thing now. But the internet remembers forever, and your words from 10 years ago can be retweeted and become alive as if you said them now. A possible solution would be to use a nickname... and whenever you notice you grew up so much that you no longer identify with the words of your nickname, pick up a new one. Also new accounts on social networks, and re-friend only those people you still consider worthy. Well, in this case the abrupt change would be the unnatural thing, but perhaps you could still keep using your previous account for some time, but mostly passively. As your real-life new self would have different opinions, different hobbies, and different friends than your self from 10 years ago, so would your online self. Unfortunately, this solution goes against "terms of service" of almost all major website. On the advertisement-driven web, advertisers want to know your history, and they are the real customers... you are only a product.

Related to: Realism about rationality

I have talked to some people who say that they value ethical reflection, and would prefer that humanity reflected for a very long time before colonizing the stars. In a sense I agree, but at the same time I can't help but think that "reflection" is a vacuous feel-good word that has no shared common meaning.

Some forms of reflection are clearly good. Epistemic reflection is good if you are a consequentialist, since it can help you get what you want. I also agree that narrow forms of reflection can also be ... (read more)

2limerott2yThe vague reflections you are referring to are analogous to somebody saying "I should really exercise more" without ever doing it. I agree that the mere promise of reflection is useless. But I do think that reflections about the vague topics are important and possible. Actively working through one's experiences, reading relevant books, discussing questions with intelligent people can lead to epiphanies (and eventually life choices), that wouldn't have occurred otherwise. However, this is not done with a push of a button and these things don't happen randomly -- they will only emerge if you are prepared to invest a lot of time and energy. All of this happens on a personal level. To use your example, somebody may conclude from his own life experience that living a life of purpose is more important to him than to live a life of happiness. How to formalize this process so that an AI could use a canonical way to achieve it (and infer somebody's real values simply by observing) is beyond me. It would have to know a lot more about us than is comfortable for most of us.

It's now been about two years since I started seriously blogging. Most of my posts are on Lesswrong, and the most of the rest are scattered about on my substack and the Effective Altruist Forum, or on Facebook. I like writing, but I have an impediment which I feel impedes me greatly.

In short: I often post garbage.

Sometimes when I post garbage, it isn't until way later that I learn that it was garbage. And when that happens, it's not that bad, because at least I grew as a person since then.

But the usual case is that I realize that it's garbage right after I... (read more)

4Viliam1moI have a hope that with more practice, this gets better. Not just practice, but also noticing what other people do differently. For example, I often write long texts, which some people say is already a mistake. But even a long text can be made more legible if it contains section headers and pictures. Both of them break the visual monotonicity of the text wall. This is why section headers are useful even if they are literally: "1", "2", "3". In some sense, pictures are even better, because too many headers create another layer of monotonicity, which a few unique pictures do not. Which again suggests that having 1 photo, 1 graph, and 1 diagram is better than having 3 photos. I would say, write the text first, then think about which parts can be made clearer by adding a picture. There is some advice on writing, by Stephen King, or by Scott Alexander. If you post a garbage, let it be. Write more articles, and perhaps at the end of a year (or a decade) make a list "my best posts" which will not include the garbage. BTW, whatever you do, you will get some negative response. Your posts on LW are upvoted, so I assume they are not too bad. Also, writing can be imbalanced. Even for people who only write great texts, some of them are more great and some of them are less great than the others. But if they deleted the worst one, guess what, now some other articles is the worst one... and if you continue this way, you will stop with one or zero articles.
2Steven Byrnes1moSometimes I send a draft to a couple people before posting it publicly. Sometimes I sit on an idea for a while, then find an excuse to post it in a comment or bring it up in a conversation, get some feedback that way, and then post it properly. I have several old posts I stopped endorsing, but I didn't delete them; I put either an update comment at the top or a bunch of update comments throughout saying what I think now. (Last week I spent almost a whole day just putting corrections and retractions into my catalog of old posts.) I for one would have a very positive impression of a writer whose past writings were full of parenthetical comments that they were wrong about this or that. Even if the posts wind up unreadable as a consequence.

Should effective altruists be praised for their motives, or their results?

It is sometimes claimed, perhaps by those who recently read The Elephant in the Brain, that effective altruists have not risen above the failures of traditional charity, and are every bit as mired in selfish motives as non-EA causes. From a consequentialist view, however, this critique is not by itself valid.

To a consequentialist, it doesn't actually matter what one's motives are as long as the actual effect of their action is to do as much good as possible. This is the pri... (read more)

1Pattern2yEvidence for this?
3Matthew Barnett2yHmm, I sort of assumed this was obvious. I suppose it depends greatly on how you can inspect whether they are actually trying, or whether they are just "trying." It's indeed probable that with sufficient supervision, you can actually do better by incentivizing effort. However, this method is expensive.

Sometimes people will propose ideas, and then those ideas are met immediately after with harsh criticism. A very common tendency for humans is to defend our ideas and work against these criticisms, which often gets us into a state that people refer to as "defensive."

According to common wisdom, being in a defensive state is a bad thing. The rationale here is that we shouldn't get too attached to our own ideas. If we do get attached, we become liable to become crackpots who can't give an idea up because it would make them look bad if we ... (read more)

6Wei_Dai2yA couple of relevant posts/threads that come to mind: * Individual vs. Group Epistemic Rationality [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/kqdeufnJq9HdWmpaY/individual-vs-group-epistemic-rationality] * Raemon's recent shortform on adversarial debates producing positive externalities [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/jL7uDE5oH4HddYq4u/raemon-s-shortform-feed#8sqnMbbxBRgg4goDr]
5Viliam2yJust like an idea can be wrong, so can be criticism. It is bad to give up the idea, just because.. * someone rounded it up to the nearest cliche, and provided the standard cached answer; * someone mentioned a scientific article (that failed to replicate) that disproves your idea (or something different, containing the same keywords); * someone got angry because it seems to oppose their political beliefs; * etc. My "favorite" version of wrong criticism is when someone experimentally disproves a strawman version of your hypothesis. Suppose your hypothesis is "eating vegetables is good for health", and someone makes an experiment where people are only allowed to eat carrots, nothing more. After a few months they get sick, and the author of the experiment publishes a study saying "science proves that vegetables are actually harmful for your health". (Suppose, optimistically, that the author used sufficiently large N, and did the statistics properly, so there is nothing to attack from the methodological angle.) From now on, whenever you mention that perhaps a diet containing more vegetables could benefit someone, someone will send you a link to the article that "debunks the myth" and will consider the debate closed. So, when I hear about research proving that parenting / education / exercise / whatever doesn't cause this or that, my first reaction is to wonder how specifically did the researchers operationalize such a general word, and whether the thing they studied even resembles my case. (And yes, I am aware that the same strategy could be used to refute any inconvenient statement, such as "astrology doesn't work" -- "well, I do astrology a bit differently than the people studied in that experiment, therefore the conclusion doesn't apply to me".)

I keep wondering why many AI alignment researchers aren't using the alignmentforum. I have met quite a few people who are working on alignment who I've never encountered online. I can think of a few reasons why this might be,

  • People find it easier to iterate on their work without having to write things up
  • People don't want to share their work, potentially because they think a private-by-default policy is better.
  • It is too cumbersome to interact with other researchers through the internet. In-person interactions are easier
  • They just haven't even considered from a first person perspective whether it would be worth it

I've often wished that conversation norms shifted towards making things more consensual. The problem is that when two people are talking, it's often the case that one party brings up a new topic without realizing that the other party didn't want to talk about that, or doesn't want to hear it.

Let me provide an example: Person A and person B are having a conversation about the exam that they just took. Person A bombed the exam, so they are pretty bummed. Person B, however, did great and wants to tell everyone. So then person B comes up to... (read more)

5Matt Goldenberg2yHave you read the posts on ask, tell, and guess culture? They feel highly related to this idea.
4Raemon2yMalcolm Ocean eventually reframed Tell Culture as Reveal Culture [https://malcolmocean.com/2015/06/reveal-culture/], which I found to be an improvement.
1Matthew Barnett2yHmm, I saw those a while ago and never read them. I'll check them out.
2Dagon2yThe problem is, if a conversational topic can be hurtful, the meta-topic can be too. "do you want to talk about the test" could be as bad or worse than talking about the test, if it's taken as a reference to a judgement-worthy sensitivity to the topic. And "Can I ask you if you want to talk about whether you want to talk about the test" is just silly. Mr-hire's comment is spot-on - there are variant cultural expectations that may apply, and you can't really unilaterally decide another norm is better (though you can have opinions and default stances). The only way through is to be somewhat aware of the conversational signals about what topics are welcome and what should be deferred until another time. You don't need prior agreement if you can take the hint when an unusually-brief non-response is given to your conversational bid. If you're routinely missing hints (or seeing hints that aren't), and the more direct discussions are ALSO uncomfortable for them or you, then you'll probably have to give up on that level of connection with that person.
1Matthew Barnett2yI agree. Although if you are known for asking those types of questions maybe people will learn to understand you never mean it as a judgement. True, although I'll usually take silly over judgement any day. :)

A common heuristic argument I've seen recently in the effective altruism community is the idea that existential risks are low probability because of what you could call the "People really don't want to die" (PRDWTD) hypothesis. For example, see here,

People in general really want to avoid dying, so there’s a huge incentive (a willingness-to-pay measured in the trillions of dollars for the USA alone) to ensure that AI doesn’t kill everyone.

(Note that I hardly mean to strawman MacAskill here. I'm not arguing against him ... (read more)

4Dagon1yPeople clearly DO want to die - $2.2 billion dollars of actual spending (not theoretical "willingness to pay") on alcohol in the US in 2018.
2Matthew Barnett1yYeah similar to obesity, people seem quite willing to cave into their desires. I'd be interesting in knowing what the long-term effects of daily alcohol consumption are, though, because some sources have told me that it isn't that bad for longevity. [ETA: The Wikipedia page [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_alcohol_consumption] is either very biased, or strongly rejects my prior sources!]

After writing the post on using transparency regularization to help make neural networks more interpretable, I have become even more optimistic that this is a potentially promising line of research for alignment. This is because I have noticed that there are a few properties about transparency regularization which may allow it to avoid some pitfalls of bad alignment proposals.

To be more specific, in order for a line of research to be useful for alignment, it helps if

  • The line of research doesn't require unnecessarily large amounts of computations to p
... (read more)

Forgive me for cliche scientism, but I recently realized that I can't think of any major philosophical developments in the last two centuries that occurred within academic philosophy. If I were to try to list major philosophical achievements since 1819, these would likely appear on my list, but none of them were from those trained in philosophy:

  • A convincing, simple explanation for the apparent design we find in the living world (Darwin and Wallace).
  • The unification of time and space into one fabric (Einstein)
  • A solid foundation for axiomatic mathematics
... (read more)

I would name the following:

8Adam Scholl2yMy impression is that academic philosophy has historically produced a lot of good deconfusion work in metaethics (e.g. this [https://smile.amazon.com/Language-Truth-Logic-Western-Philosophy/dp/0486200108?sa-no-redirect=1] and this [https://smile.amazon.com/Reasons-Persons-Derek-Parfit/dp/019824908X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=reasons+and+persons&qid=1565649196&s=books&sr=1-1] ), as well as some really neat negative results like the logical empiricists' failed attempt to construct a language in which verbal propositions could be cached out/analyzed in terms of logic or set theory in a way similar to how one can cache out/analyze Python in terms of machine code. In recent times there's been a lot of (in my opinion) great academic philosophy done at FHI.
3Matthew Barnett2yThose are all pretty good. :)
8TAG2yWow! You left out the whole of analytical philosophy!
1Matthew Barnett2yI'm not saying that I'm proud of this fact. It is mostly that I'm ignorant of it. :)
3jacobjacob2y* The development of modern formal logic (predicate logic, modal logic, the equivalence of higher-order logics and set-theory, etc.), which is of course deeply related to Zermelo, Fraenkel, Turing and Church, but which involved philosophers like Quine, Putnam, Russell, Kripke, Lewis and others. * The model of scientific progress as proceeding via pre-paradigmatic, paradigmatic, and revolutionary stages (from Kuhn, who wrote as a philosopher, though trained as a physicist)
2habryka2yI will mark that I think this is wrong, and if anything I would describe it as a philosophical dead-end. Complexity of value [https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Complexity_of_value] and all of that. So listing it as a philosophical achievement seems backwards to me.
1Matthew Barnett2yI might add that I also consider the development of ethical anti-realism to be another, perhaps more insightful, achievement. But this development is, from what I understand, usually attributed to Hume. Depending on what you mean by "pleasure" and "pain" it is possible that you merely have a simple conception of the two words which makes this identification incompatible with complexity of value. The robust form of this distinction was provided by John Stuart Mill who identified that some forms of pleasure can be more valuable than others (which is honestly quite similar to what we might find in the fun theory sequence...). In its modern formulation, I would say that Bentham's contribution was identifying conscious states as being the primary theater for which value can exist. I can hardly disagree, as I struggle to imagine things in this world which could possibly have value outside of conscious experience. Still, I think there are perhaps some, which is why I conceded by using the words "primary source of value" rather than "sole source of value." To the extent that complexity of value disagrees with what I have written above, I incline to disagree with complexity of value :).
2Raemon2y(I think you and habryka in fact disagree pretty deeply here)
1Matthew Barnett2yThen I will assert that I would in fact appreciate seeing the reasons for disagreement, even as the case may be that it comes down to axiomatic intuitions.

Rationalists are fond of saying that the problems of the world are not from people being evil, but instead a result of the incentives of our system, which are such that this bad outcome is an equilibrium. There's a weaker thesis here that I agree with, but otherwise I don't think this argument actually follows.

In game theory, an equilibrium is determined by both the setup of the game, and by the payoffs for each player. The payoffs are basically the values of the players in the game—their utility functions. In other words, you get different equilibria if p... (read more)

6Viliam12dThe connection between "doing good" and "making a sacrifice" is so strong that people need to be reminded that "win/win" is also a thing. The bad guys typically do whatever is best for them, which often involves hurting others (because some resources are limited). The good guys exercise restraint. This is complicated because there is also the issue of short-term and long-term thinking. Sometimes the bad guys do things that benefit them in short term, but contribute to their fall in long term; while the good guys increase their long-term gains by strategically giving up on some short-term temptations. But it is a just-world fallacy to assume that things always end up this way. Sometimes the bad [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong] guys [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot] murder millions, and then they live happily to old age. Sometimes the good [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis] guys get punished and laughed at, and then they die in despair. How could "good" even have evolved, given that "sacrifice" seems by definition incompatible with "maximizing fitness"? * being good to your relatives promotes your genes. * reciprocal goodness can be an advantage to both players. * doing good -- precisely because it is a sacrifice -- can become a signal of abundance, which makes other humans want to be my allies or mates. * people reward good and punish evil in others, because it is in their selfish interest to live among good people. The problems caused by the evolutionary origin of goodness are also well-known: people are more likely to be good towards their neighbors who can reciprocate or towards potential sexual partners, and they are more likely to do good when they have an audience who approves of it... and less likely to do good to low-status people who can't reciprocate, or when their activities are anonymous. (Steals money from pension funds, polutes the environment, then donates millions to a prestigious university.) I assume that
4habryka14dI usually associate things like "being evil" more with something like "part of my payoff matrix has a negative coefficient on your payoff matrix". I.e. actively wanting to hurt people and taking inherent interest in making them worse off. Selfishness feels pretty different from being evil emotionally, at least to me.
4Dagon11dJudgement of evil follows the same pressures as evil itself. Selfishness feels different from sadism to you, at least in part because it's easier to find cooperative paths with selfishness. And this question really does come down to "when should I cooperate vs defect".
3Viliam12dIf your well-being has exactly zero value in my preference function, that literally means that I would kill you in a dark alley if I believed there was zero chance of being punished, because there is a chance you might have some money that I could take. I would call that "evil", too.
2Dagon11dYou can't hypothesize zeros and get anywhere. MANY MANY psychopaths exist, and very few of them find it more effective to murder people for spare change than to further their ends in other ways. They may not care about you, but your atoms are useful to them in their current configuration.
2Viliam10dThere are ways of hurting people other than stabbing them, I just used a simple example. I think there is a confusion about what exactly "selfish" means, and I blame Ayn Rand for it. The heroes in her novels are given the label "selfish" because they do not care about possibilities to actively do something good for other people unless there is also some profit for them (which is what a person with zero value for others in their preference function would do), but at the same time they avoid actively harming other people in ways that could bring them some profit (which is not what a perfectly selfish person would do). As a result, we get quite unrealistic characters who on one hand are described as rational profit maximizers who don't care about others (except instrumentally), but on the other hand they follow an independently reinvented deontological framework that seems like designed by someone who actually cares about other people but is in deep denial about it (i.e. Ayn Rand). A truly selfish person (someone who truly does not care about others) would hurt others in situations where doing so is profitable (including second-order effects). A truly selfish person would not arbitrarily invent a deontological code against hurting other people, because such code is merely a rationalization invented by someone who already has an emotional reason not to hurt other people but wants to pretend that instead this is a logical conclusion derived from first principles. Interacting with a psychopath with likely get you hurt. It will likely not get you killed, because some other way of hurting you has a better risk:benefit profile. Perhaps the most profitable way is to scam you of some money and use you to get introduced to your friends. Only once in a while a situation will arise when raping someone is sufficiently safe, or killing someone is extremely profitable, e.g. because that person stands in a way of a grand business.
2Dagon9dI'm not sure what our disagreement actually is - I agree with your summary of Ayn Rand, I agree that there are lots of ways to hurt people without stabbing. I'm not sure you're claiming this, but I think that failure to help is selfish too, though I'm not sure it's comparable with active harm. It may be that I'm reacting badly to the use of "truly selfish" - I fear a motte-and-bailey argument is coming, where we define it loosely, and then categorize actions inconsistently as "truly selfish" only in extremes, but then try to define policy to cover far more things. I think we're agreed that the world contains a range of motivated behaviors, from sadistic psychopaths (who have NEGATIVE nonzero terms for others' happiness) to saints (whose utility functions weight very heavily toward other's happiness over their own). I don't know if we agree that "second-order effect" very often dominate the observed behaviors over most of this range. I hope we agree that almost everyone changes their behavior to some extent based on visible incentives. I still disagree with your post that a coefficient of 0 for you in someone's mind implies murder for pocket change. And I disagree with the implication that murder for pocket change is impossible even if the coefficient is above 0 - circumstances matter more than innate utility function. To the OP's point, it's hard to know how to accomplish "make people less selfish", but "make the environment more conducive to positive-sum choices so selfish people take cooperative actions" is quite feasible.
2Viliam9dI believe this is exactly what it means, unless there is a chance of punishment or being hurt by victim's self-defense or a chance of better alternative interaction with given person. Do you assume that there is always a more profitable interaction? (What if the target says "hey, I just realized that you are a psychopath, and I do not want to interact with you anymore", and they mean it.) Could you please list the pros and cons of deciding whether to murder a stranger who refuses to interact with you, if there is zero risk of being punished, from the perspective of a psychopath? As I see it, the "might get some pocket change" in the pro column is the only nonzero item in this model.
2Dagon8dThere always is that chance. That's mostly our disagreement. Using real-world illustrations (murder) for motivational models (utility) really needs to acknowledge the uncertainty and variability, which the vast majority of the time "adds up to normal". There really aren't that many murders among strangers. And there are a fair number of people who don't value others' very highly.
2Matthew Barnett14dYes, I would make this distinction too. Yet, I submit that few people actually believe, or even say they believe, that the main problems in the world are caused by people being gratuitously or sadistically evil. There are some problems that people would explain this way: violent crime comes to mind. But I don't think the evil hypothesis is the most common explanation given by non-rationalists for why we have, say, homelessness and poverty. That is to say that, insofar as the common rationalist refrain of "problems are caused by incentives dammit, not evil people" refers to an actual argument people generally give, it's probably referring to the argument that people are selfish and greedy. And in that sense, the rationalists and non-rationalists are right: it's both the system and the actors within it.

I've heard a surprising number of people criticize parenting recently using some pretty harsh labels. I've seen people call it a form of "Stockholm syndrome" and a breach of liberty, morally unnecessary etc. This seems kind of weird to me, because it doesn't really match my experience as a child at all.

I do agree that parents can sometimes violate liberty, and so I'd prefer a world where children could break free from their parents without penalties. But I also think that most children genuinely love their parents and so would... (read more)

5cousin_it2yYeah, that's one argument for tradition: it's simply not the pit of misery that its detractors claim it to be. But for parenting in particular, I think I can give an even stronger argument. Children aren't little seeds of goodness that just need to be set free. They are more like little seeds of anything. If you won't shape their values, there's no shortage of other forces in the world that would love to shape your children's values, without having their interests at heart.
2Matthew Barnett2yToddlers, yes. If we're talking about people over the age of say, 8, then it becomes less true. By the time they are a teen, it becomes pretty false. And yet people still say that legal separation at 18 is good. If you are merely making the argument that we should limit their exposure to things that could influence them in harmful directions, then I'd argue that this never stops being a powerful force, including for people well into adulthood and in old age.
6cousin_it2yHuh? Most 8 year olds can't even make themselves study instead of playing Fortnite, and certainly don't understand the issues with unplanned pregnancies. I'd say 16-18 is about the right age where people can start relying on internal structure instead of external. Many take even longer, and need to join the army or something.

In my post about long AI timelines, I predicted that we would see attempts to regulate AI. An easy path for regulators is to target power-hungry GPUs and distributed computing in an attempt to minimize carbon emissions and electricity costs. It seems regulators may be going even faster than I believed in this case, with new bans on high performance personal computers now taking effect in six US states. Are bans on individual GPUs next?

Is it possible to simultaneously respect people's wishes to live, and others' wishes to die?

Transhumanists are fond of saying that they want to give everyone the choice of when and how they die. Giving people the choice to die is clearly preferable to our current situation, as it respects their autonomy, but it leads to the following moral dilemma.

Suppose someone loves essentially every moment of their life. For tens of thousands of years, they've never once wished that they did not exist. They've never had suicidal thoughts, and have a... (read more)

4jessicata1yNot if the waiting period gets longer over time (e.g. proportional to lifespan).
2Matthew Barnett1yGood point. Although, there's still a nonzero chance that they will die, if we continually extend the waiting period in some manner. And perhaps given their strong preference not to die, this is still violating their autonomy?
2avturchin1yA person could be split on two parts: one that wants to die and other which to live. Then the first part is turned off.
2Dagon1yYou don't need it anywhere near as stark a contrast as this. In fact, it's even harder if the agent (like many actual humans) has previously considered suicide, and has experienced joy that they didn't do so, followed by periods of reconsideration. Intertemporal preference inconsistency is one effect of the fact that we're not actually rational agents. Your question boils down to "when an agent has inconsistent preferences, how do we choose which to support?" My answer is "support the versions that seem to make my future universe better". If someone wants to die, and I think the rest of us would be better off if that someone lives, I'll oppose their death, regardless of what they "really" want. I'll likely frame it as convincing them they don't really want to die, and use the fact that they didn't want that in the past as "evidence", but really it's mostly me imposing my preferences. There are some with whom I can have the altruistic conversation: future-you AND future-me both prefer you stick around. Do it for us? Even then, you can't support any real person's actual preferences, because they don't exist. You can only support your current vision of their preferred-by-you preferences.

I think that human level capabilities in natural language processing (something like GPT-2 but much more powerful) is likely to occur in some software system within 20 years.

Since human level capabilities in natural language processing is a very rich real-world task, I would consider a system with those capabilities to be adequately described as a general intelligence, though it would likely not be very dangerous due to its lack of world-optimization capabilities.

This belief of mine is based on a few heuristics. Below I have collected a few claims which I... (read more)

1Gurkenglas2yI expect that human-level language processing is enough to construct human-level programming and mathematical research ability. Aka, complete a research diary the way a human would, by matching with patterns it has previously seen, just as human mathematicians do. That should be capability enough to go as foom as possible.
1Matthew Barnett2yIf AI is limited by hardware rather than insight, I find it unlikely that a 300 trillion parameter Transformer trained to reproduce math/CS papers would be able to "go foom." In other words, while I agree that the system I have described would likely be able to do human-level programming (though it would still make mistakes, just like human programmers!) I doubt that this would necessarily cause it to enter a quick transition to superintelligence of any sort. I suspect the system that I have described above would be well suited for automating some types of jobs, but would not necessarily alter the structure of the economy by a radical degree.
1Gurkenglas2yIt wouldn't necessarily cause such a quick transition, but it could easily be made to. A human with access to this tool could iterate designs very quickly, and he could take himself out of the loop by letting the tool predict and execute his actions as well, or by piping its code ideas directly into a compiler, or some other way the tool thinks up.
1Matthew Barnett2yMy skepticism is mainly that this would be quicker than normal human iteration, or that this would substantially improve upon the strategy of simply buying more hardware. However, as we see in the recent case of eg. roBERTa [https://arxiv.org/pdf/1907.11692.pdf], there are a few insights which substantially improve upon a single AI system. I just remain skeptical that a single human-level AI system would produce these insights faster than a regular human team of experts. In other words, my opinion of recursive self improvement in this narrow case is that it isn't a fundamentally different strategy from human oversight and iteration. It can be used to automate some parts of the process, but I don't think that foom is necessarily implied in any strong sense.
1Gurkenglas2yThe default argument that such a development would lead to a foom is that an insight-based regular doubling of speed mathematically reaches a singularity in finite time when the speed increases pay insight dividends. You can't reach that singularity with a fleshbag in the loop (though it may be unlikely to matter if with him in the loop, you merely double every day). For certain shapes of how speed increases depend on insight and oversight, there may be a perverse incentive to cut yourself out of your loop before the other guy cuts himself out.

I generally agree with the heuristic that we should "live on the mainline", meaning that we should mostly plan for events which capture the dominant share of our probability. This heuristic causes me to have a tendency to do some of the following things

  • Work on projects that I think have a medium-to-high chance of succeeding and quickly abandon things that seem like they are failing.
  • Plan my career trajectory based on where I think I can plausibly maximize my long term values.
  • Study subjects only if I think that I will need to understand them at som
... (read more)
6Raemon2ySome random thoughts: * Startups and pivots. Startups require lots of commitment even when things feel like they're collapsing – only by perservering through those times can you possibly make it. Still, startups are willing to pivot – take their existing infrastructure but change key strategic approaches. * Escalating commitment. Early on (in most domains), you should pick shorter term projects, because the focus is on learning. Code a website in a week. Code another website in 2 months. Don't stress too much on multi-year plans until you're reasonably confident you sorta know what you're doing. (Relatedly, relationships: early on it makes sense to date a lot to get some sense of who/what you're looking for in a romantic partner. But eventually, a lot of the good stuff comes when you actually commit to longterm relationships that are capable of weathering periods of strife and doubt) * Alternately: Givewell (or maybe OpenPhil?) did mixtures of shallow dives, deep dives and medium dives into cause areas because they learned different sorts of things from each kind of research. * Commitment mindset. Sort of how Nate Soares recommends separating the feeling of conviction from the epistemic belief of high-success [http://mindingourway.com/conviction-without-s/]... you can separate "I'm going to stick with this project for a year or two because it's likely to work" from "I'm going to stick to this project for a year or two because sticking to projects for a year or two is how you learn how projects work on the 1-2 year timescale, including the part where you shift gears and learn from mistakes and become more robust about them.
5Gurkenglas2yMathematically, it seems like you should just give your heuristic the better data you already consciously have: If your untrustworthy senses say you aren't on the mainline, the correct move isn't necessarily to believe them, but rather to decide to put effort into figuring it out, because it's important. It's clear how your heuristic would evolve. To embrace it correctly, you should make sure that your entire life lives in the mainline. If there's a game with negative expected value, where the worst outcome has chance 10%, and you play it 20 times, that's stupid. Budget the probability you are willing to throw away for the rest of your life now. If you don't think you can stay to your budget, if you know that always, you will tomorrow play another round of that game by the same reasoning as today, then realize that today's reasoning decides today and tomorrow. Realize that the mainline of giving in to the heuristic is losing eventually, and let the heuristic destroy itself immediately.
2Matt Goldenberg2yThere are two big issues with the "living in the mainline" strategy: 1. Most of the highest EV activities are those that have low chance of success but big rewards. I suspect much of your volatile behavior is bouncing between chasing opportunities you see as high value, and then realizing you're not on the mainline and correcting, then realizing there are higher EV opportunities and correcting again. 2. Strategies that work well on the mainline often fail spectacularly in the face of black swans. So they have a high probability of working but also very negative EV in unlikely situations (which you ignore if you're only thinking about the mainline). Two alternatives to the "living on the mainline" heuristic: 1. The Anti-fragility heuristic: * Use the barbell strategy, to split your activities between surefire wins with low upsides and certainty, and risky moonshots with low downsides but lots of uncertainty around upsides. * Notice the reasons that things fail, and make them robust to that class of failure in the future. * Try lots of things, and stick with the ones that work over time. 2. The Effectuation Heuristic: * Go into areas where you have unfair advantages. * Spread your downside risk to people or organizations who can handle it. * In generally, work to CREATE the mainline where you have an unfair advantage and high upside. You might get some mileage out of reading the effectuation and anti-fragility sections of this post. [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/eA9a5fpi6vAmyyp74/how-to-understand-and-mitigate-risk]

In discussions about consciousness I find myself repeating the same basic argument against the existence of qualia constantly. I don't do this just to be annoying: It is just my experience that

1. People find consciousness really hard to think about and has been known to cause a lot of disagreements.

2. Personally I think that this particular argument dissolved perhaps 50% of all my confusion about the topic, and was one of the simplest, clearest arguments that I've ever seen.

I am not being original either. The argument is the same one that has b... (read more)

4Raemon2yAnd I assume your claim is that we can explain why I believe in Qualia without referring to qualia? I haven’t thought that hard about this and am open to that argument. But afaict your comments here so far haven’t actually addressed this question yet. Edit: to be clear, I don't really much why other people talk about qualia. I care why I perceive myself to experience things. If it's an illusion, cool, but then why do I experience the illusion?
1Matthew Barnett2yIf belief is construed as some sort of representation which stands for external reality (as in the case of some correspondence theories of truth), then we can take the claim to be strong prediction of contemporary neuroscience. Ditto for whether we can explain why we talk about qualia. It's not that I could explain exactly why you in particular talk about qualia. It's that we have an established paradigm for explaining it. It's similar in the respect that we have an established paradigm for explaining why people report being able to see color. We can model the eye, and the visual cortex, and we have some idea of what neurons do even though we lack the specific information about how the whole thing fits together. And we could imagine that in the limit of perfect neuroscience, we could synthesize this information to trace back the reason why you said a particular thing. Since we do not have perfect neuroscience, the best analogy would be analyzing the 'beliefs' and predictions of an artificial neural network. If you asked me, "Why does this ANN predict that this image is a 5 with 98% probability" it would be difficult to say exactly why, even with full access to the neural network parameters. However, we know that unless our conception of neural networks is completely incorrect, in principle we could trace exactly why the neural network made that judgement, including the exact steps that caused the neural network to have the parameters that it has in the first place. And we know that such an explanation requires only the components which make up the ANN, and not any conscious or phenomenal properties.
2Raemon2yI can't tell whether we're arguing about the same thing. Like, I assume that I am a neural net predicting things and deciding things and if you had full access to my brain you could (in principle, given sufficient time) understand everything that was going on in there. But, like, one way or another I experience the perception of perceiving things. (I'd prefer to taboo 'Qualia' in case it has particular connotations I don't share. Just 'that thing where Ray perceives himself perceiving things, and perhaps the part where sometimes Ray has preferences about those perceptions of perceiving because the perceptions have valence.' If that's what Qualia means, cool, and if it means some other thing I'm not sure I care) My current working model of "how this aspect of my perception works" is described in this comment [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/DLmhJbuhYek5rEhpH/mairy-s-room-ai-reasoning-to-solve-philosophical-problems#JBPchQnaw3yMpNsaS] , I guess easy enough to quote in full: The reason I care about any of this is that I believe that a "perceptions-having-valence" is probably morally relevant. (or, put in usual terms: suffering and pleasure seem morally relevant). (I think it's quite possibe that future-me will decide I was confused about this part, but it's the part I care about anyhow) Are you saying the my perceiving-that-I-perceive-things-with-valence is an illusion, and that I am in fact not doing that? Or some other thing? (To be clear, I AM open to 'actually Ray yes, the counterintuitive answer is that no, you're not actually perceiving-that-you-perceive-things-and-some-of-the-perceptions-have-valence.' The topic is clearly confusing and behind the veil of epistemic-ignorance it seems quite plausible I'm the confused one here. Just noting that so far that from way you're phrasing things I can't tell whether your claims map onto the things I care about )
1Matthew Barnett2yTo me this is a bit like the claim of someone who claimed psychic powers but still wanted to believe in physics who would say, "I assume you could perfectly well understand what was going on at a behavioral level within my brain, but there is still a datum left unexplained: the datum of me having psychic powers." There are a number of ways to respond to the claim: * We could redefine psychic powers to include mere physical properties. This has the problem that psychics insist that psychic power is entirely separate from physical properties. Simple re-definition doesn't make the intuition go away and doesn't explain anything. * We could alternatively posit new physics which incorporates psychic powers. This has the occasional problem that it violates Occam's razor, since the old physics was completely adequate. Hence the debunking argument I presented above. * Or, we could incorporate the phenomenon within a physical model by first denying that it exists and then explaining the mechanism which caused you to believe in it, and talk about it. In the case of consciousness, the third response amounts to Illusionism, which is the view that I am defending. It has the advantage that it conservatively doesn't promise to contradict known physics, and it also does justice to the intuition that consciousness really exists. To most philosophers who write about it, qualia is defined as the experience of what it's like. Roughly speaking, I agree with thinking of it as a particular form of perception that we experience. However, it's not just any perception, since some perceptions can be unconscious perceptions. Qualia specifically refer to the qualitative aspects of our experience of the world: the taste of wine, the touch of fabric, the feeling of seeing blue, the suffering associated with physical pain etc. These are said to be directly apprehensible to our 'internal movie' that is playing inside our head. It is this type of property which I a
4Raemon2yIt still feels very important that you haven't actually explained this. In the case of psychic powers, I (think?) we actually have pretty good explanations for where perceptions of psychic powers comes from, which makes the perception of psychic powers non-mysterious. (i.e. we know how cold reading works, and how various kinds of confirmation bias play into divination). But, that was something that actually had to be explained. It feels like you're just changing the name of the confusing thing from 'the fact that I seem conscious to myself' to 'the fact that I'm experiencing an illusion of consciousness.' Cool, but, like, there's still a mysterious thing that seems quite important to actually explain.
1Matthew Barnett2yAlso just in general, I disagree that skepticism is not progress. If I said, "I don't believe in God because there's nothing in the universe with those properties..." I don't think it's fair to say, "Cool, but like, I'm still praying to something right, and that needs to be explained" because I don't think that speaks fully to what I just denied. In the case of religion, many people have a very strong intuition that God exists. So, is the atheist position not progress because we have not explained this intuition?
2Raemon2yI agree that skepticism generally can be important progress (I recently stumbled upon this old comment making a similar argument [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/2mLZiWxWKZyaRgcn7/selling-nonapples#pojM4cgc7qRyFNim5] about how saying "not X" can be useful) The difference between God and consciousness is that the interesting bit about consciousness *is* my perception of it, full stop. Unlike God or psychic powers, there is no separate thing from my perception of it that I'm interested in.
1Matthew Barnett2yIf by perception you simply mean "You are an information processing device that takes signals in and outputs things" then this is entirely explicable on our current physical models, and I could dissolve the confusion fairly easily. However, I think you have something else in mind which is that there is somehow something left out when I explain it by simply appealing to signal processing. In that sense, I think you are falling right into the trap! You would be doing something similar to the person who said, "But I am still praying to God!"
2Raemon2yI don't have anything else in mind that I know of. "Explained via signal processing" seems basically sufficent. The interesting part is "how can you look at a given signal-processing-system, and predict in advance whether that system is the sort of thing that would talk* about Qualia, if it could talk?" (I feel like this was all covered in the sequences, basically?) *where "talk about qualia" is shorthand 'would consider the concept of qualia important enough to have a concept for.'"
2Matthew Barnett2yI mean, I agree that this was mostly covered in the sequences. But I also think that I disagree with the way that most people frame the debate. At least personally I have seen people who I know have read the sequences still make basic errors. So I'm just leaving this here to explain my point of view. Intuition: On a first approximation, there is something that it is like to be us. In other words, we are beings who have qualia. Counterintuition: In order for qualia to exist, there would need to exist entities which are private, ineffable, intrinsic, subjective and this can't be since physics is public, effable, and objective and therefore contradicts the existence of qualia. Intuition: But even if I agree with you that qualia don't exist, there still seems to be something left unexplained. Counterintuition: We can explain why you think there's something unexplained because we can explain the cause of your belief in qualia, and why you think they have these properties. By explaining why you believe it we have explained all there is to explain. Intuition: But you have merely said that we could explain it. You have not have actually explained it. Counterintuition: Even without the precise explanation, we now have a paradigm for explaining consciousness, so it is not mysterious anymore. This is essentially the point where I leave.
4TAG2yPhysics as map is. Note that we can't compare the map directly to the territory.
3Slider2yWe do not telepathically receive experiemnt results when they are performed. In reality you need ot intake the measumrent results from your first-person point of view (use eyes to read led screen or use ears to hear about stories of experiments performed). It seems to be taht experiments are intersubjective in that other observers will report having experiences that resemble my first-hand experiences. For most purposes shorthanding this to "public" is adequate enough. But your point of view is "unpublisable" in that even if you really tried there is no way to provide you private expereience to the public knowledge pool ("directly"). "I now how you feel" is a fiction it doesn't actually happen. Skeptisim about the experiencing of others is easier but being skeptical about your own experiences would seem to be ludicrous.
1Matthew Barnett2yI am not denying that humans take in sensory input and process it using their internal neural networks. I am denying that process has any of the properties associated with consciousness in the philosophical sense. And I am making an additional claim which is that if you merely redefine consciousness so that it lacks these philosophical properties, you have not actually explained anything or dissolved any confusion. The illusionist approach is the best approach because it simultaneously takes consciousness seriously and doesn't contradict physics. By taking this approach we also have an understood paradigm for solving the hard problem of consciousness: namely, the hard problem is reduced to the meta-problem (see Chalmers [https://philpapers.org/archive/CHATMO-32.pdf]).
1Matthew Barnett2yI don't actually agree. Although I have not fully explained consciousness, I think that I have shown a lot. In particular, I have shown us what the solution to the hard problem of consciousness would plausibly look like if we had unlimited funding and time. And to me, that's important. And under my view, it's not going to look anything like, "Hey we discovered this mechanism in the brain that gives rise to consciousness." No, it's going to look more like, "Look at this mechanism in the brain that makes humans talk about things even though the things they are talking about have no real world referent." You might think that this is a useless achievement. I claim the contrary. As Chalmers points out, pretty much all the leading theories of consciousness fail the basic test of looking like an explanation rather than just sounding confused. Don't believe me? Read Section 3 in this paper [https://philpapers.org/archive/CHATMO-32.pdf]. In short, Chalmers reviews the current state of the art in consciousness explanations. He first goes into Integrated Information Theory (IIT), but then convincingly shows that IIT fails to explain why we would talk about consciousness and believe in consciousness. He does the same for global workspace theories, first order representational theories, higher order theories, consciousness-causes-collapse theories, and panpsychism. Simply put, none of them even approach an adequate baseline of looking like an explanation. I also believe that if you follow my view carefully you might stop being confused about a lot of things. Like, do animals feel pain? Well it depends on your definition of pain -- consciousness is not real in any objective sense so this is a definition dispute. Same with asking whether person A is happier than person B, or asking whether computers will ever be conscious. Perhaps this isn't an achievement strictly speaking relative to the standard Lesswrong points of view. But that's only because I think the standard L
1TAG2yThat's an argument against dualism not an argument against qualia. If mind brain identity is true, neural activity is causing reports, and qualia, along with the rest of consciousness are identical to neural activity, so qualia are also causing reports.
1Matthew Barnett2yIf you identify qualia as behavioral parts of our physical models, then are you also willing to discard the properties philosophers have associated with qualia, such as * Ineffable, as they can't be explained using just words or mathematical sentences * Private, as they are inaccessible to outside third-person observers * Intrinsic, as they are fundamental to the way we experience the world If you are willing to discard these properties, then I suggest we stop using the world "qualia" since you have simply taken all the meaning away once you have identified them with things that actually exist. This is what I mean when I say that I am denying qualia. It is analogous to someone who denies that souls exist by first conceding that we could identify certain physical configurations as examples of souls, but then explaining that this would be confusing to anyone who talks about souls in the traditional sense. Far better in my view to discard the idea altogether.
7Raemon2yMy orientation to this conversation seems more like "hmm, I'm learning that it is possible the word qualia has a bunch of connotations that I didn't know it had", as opposed to "hmm, I was wrong to believe in the-thing-I-was-calling-qualia." But I'm not yet sure that these connotations are actually universal – the wikipedia article opens with: Later on, it notes the three characteristics (ineffable/private/intrinsic) that Dennett listed. But this looks more like an accident of history than something intrinsic to the term. The opening paragraphs defined qualia the way I naively expected it to be defined. My impression looking at the various defintions and discussion is not that qualia was defined in this specific fashion, so much as various people trying to grapple with a confusing problem generated various possible definitions and rules for it, and some of those turned out to be false once we came up with better understanding. I can see where you're coming from with the soul analogy, but I'm not sure if it's more like the soul analogy, or more like "One early philosopher defined 'a human' as a featherless biped, and then a later one said "dude, look at this featherless chicken I just made" and they realized the definition was silly. I guess my question here is – do you have a suggestion for a replacement word for "the particular kind of observation that gets made by an entity that actually gets to experience the perception"? This still seems importantly different from "just a perception", since very simple robots and thermostats or whatever can be said to have those. I don't really care whether they are inherently private, ineffable or intrinsic, and whether Daniel Dennett was able to eff them seems more like a historical curiosity to me. The wikipedia article specifically says that they people argue a lot over the definitions: That definition there is the one I'm generally using, and the one which seems important to have a word for. This seems more like a
2Raemon2yIt does seem to me something like "I expect the sort of mind that is capable of viewing qualia of other people would be sufficiently different from a human mind that it may still be fair to call them 'private/ineffable among humans.'"
1Matthew Barnett2yThanks for engaging with me on this thing. :) I know I'm not being as clear as I could possibly be, and at some points I sort of feel like just throwing "Quining Qualia" or Keith Frankish's articles or a whole bunch of other blog posts at people and say, "Please just read this and re-read it until you have a very distinct intuition about what I am saying." But I know that that type of debate is not helpful. I think I have a OK-to-good understanding of what you are saying. My model of your reply is something like this, "Your claim is that qualia don't exist because nothing with these three properties exists (ineffability/private/intrinsic), but it's not clear to me that these three properties are universally identified with qualia. When I go to Wikipedia or other sources, they usually identify qualia with 'what it's like' rather than these three very specific things that Daniel Dennett happened to list once. So, I still think that I am pointing to something real when I talk about 'what it's like' and you are only disputing a perhaps-strawman version of qualia." Please correct me if this model of you is inaccurate. I recognize what you are saying, and I agree with the place you are coming from. I really do. And furthermore, I really really agree with the idea that we should go further than skepticism and we should always ask more questions even after we have concluded that something doesn't exist. However, the place I get off the boat is where you keep talking about how this 'what it's like' thing is actually referring to something coherent in the real world that has a crisp, natural boundary around it. That's the disagreement. I don't think it's an accident of history either that those properties are identified with qualia. The whole reason Daniel Dennett identified them was because he showed that they were the necessary conclusion of the sort of thought experiments people use for qualia. He spends the whole first several paragraphs justifying them using var
1Slider2ySpouting nonsense is different from being wrong. If I say that there are no rectangles with 5 angles that can be processed pretty straght forwardly because the concept of a rectangle is unproblematic. But if you seek why that statement was made and the person points to a pentagon you will find 5 angles. Now there are polygons with 5 angles. If you give a short word for 5 angle rectangle" it's correct to say those don't exists. But if you give an ostensive definition of the shape then it does exist and it's more to the point to say that it's not a rectangle rather that it doesn't exist. In the details when persons say "what it is like to see green" one could fail to get what they mean or point to. If someone says "look a unicorn" and one has proof that unicorns don't exist that doesn't mean that the unicorn reference is not referencing something or that the reference target does not exist. If you end up in a situation where you point at a horse and say "those things do not exist. Look no horn, doesn't exist" you are not being helpful. If somebody is pointing to a horse and says "look, a unicorn!" and you go "where? I see only horses" you are also not being helpful. Being "motivatedly uncooperative in ostension receiving" is not cool. Say that you made a deal to sell a gold bar in exchange for a unicorn. Then refusing to accept any object as an unicorn woud let you keep your gold bar and you migth be tempted to play dumb. When people are saying "what it feels like to see green" they are trying to communicate something and failing their assertion by sabotaging their communication doesn't prove anything. Communication is hard yes but doing too much semantics substitution means you start talking past each other.
1TAG2yI am not suggesting that qualia should be identified with neural activity in a way that loses any aspects of the philosophical definition... bearing in mind that the he philosophical definition does not assert that qualia are non physical.
3jessicata2yWhat are you experiencing right now? (E.g. what do you see in front of you? In what sense does it seem to be there?)
1Matthew Barnett2yI won't lie -- I have a very strong intuition that there's this visual field in front of me, and that I can hear sounds that have distinct qualities, and simultaneously I can feel thoughts rush into my head as if there is an internal speaker and listener. And when I reflect on some visual in the distance, it seems as though the colors are very crisp and exist in some way independent of simple information processing in a computer-type device. It all seems very real to me. I think the main claim of the illusionist is that these intuitions (at least insofar as the intuitions are making claims about the properties of qualia) are just radically incorrect. It's as if our brains have an internal error in them, not allowing us to understand the true nature of these entities. It's not that we can't see or something like that. It's just that the quality of perceiving the world has essentially an identical structure to what one might imagine a computer with a camera would "see." Analogy: Some people who claim to have experienced heaven aren't just making stuff up. In some sense, their perception is real. It just doesn't have the properties we would expect it to have at face value. And if we actually tried looking for heaven in the physical world we would find it to be little else than an illusion.
4jessicata2yWhat's the difference between making claims about nearby objects and making claims about qualia (if there is one)? If I say there's a book to my left, is that saying something about qualia? If I say I dreamt about a rabbit last night, is that saying something about qualia? (Are claims of the form "there is a book to my left" radically incorrect?) That is, is there a way to distinguish claims about qualia from claims about local stuff/phenomena/etc?
3Matthew Barnett2ySure. There are a number of properties usually associated with qualia which are the things I deny. If we strip these properties away (something Kieth Frankish refers to as zero qualia) then we can still say that they exist. But it's confusing to say that something exists when its properties are so minimal. Daniel Dennett listed a number of properties that philosophers have assigned to qualia and conscious experience more generally: Ineffable because there's something Mary the neuroscientist is missing when she is in the black and white room. And someone who tried explaining color to her would not be able to fully. Intrinsic because it cannot be reduced to bare physical entities, like electrons (think: could you construct a quale if you had the right set of particles?). Private because they are accessible to us and not globally available. In this sense, if you tried to find out the qualia that a mouse was experiencing as it fell victim to a trap, you would come up fundamentally short because it was specific to the mouse mind and not yours. Or as Nagel put it, there's no way that third person science could discover what it's like to be a bat. Directly apprehensible because they are the elementary things that make up our experience of the world. Look around and qualia are just what you find. They are the building blocks of our perception of the world. It's not necessarily that none of these properties could be steelmanned. It is just that they are so far from being steelmannable that it is better to deny their existence entirely. It is the same as my analogy with a person who claims to have visited heaven. We could either talk about it as illusory or non-illusory. But for practical purposes, if we chose the non-illusory route we would probably be quite confused. That is, if we tried finding heaven inside the physical world, with the same properties as the claimant had proposed, then we would come up short. Far better then, to treat it as a mistake inside of our
5jessicata2yThanks for the elaboration. It seems to me that experiences are: 1. Hard-to-eff, as a good-enough theory of what physical structures have which experiences has not yet been discovered, and would take philosophical work to discover. 2. Hard to reduce to physics, for the same reason. 3. In practice private due to mind-reading technology not having been developed, and due to bandwidth and memory limitations in human communication. (It's also hard to imagine what sort of technology would allow replicating the experience of being a mouse) 4. Pretty directly apprehensible (what else would be? If nothing is, what do we build theories out of?) It seems natural to conclude from this that: 1. Physical things exist. 2. Experiences exist. 3. Experiences probably supervene on physical things, but the supervenience relation is not yet determined, and determining it requires philosophical work. 4. Given that we don't know the supervenience relation yet, we need to at least provisionally have experiences in our ontology distinct from physical entities. (It is, after all, impossible to do physics without making observations and reporting them to others) Is there something I'm missing here?
1Matthew Barnett2yHere's a thought experiment which helped me lose my 'belief' in qualia: would a robot scientist, who was only designed to study physics and make predictions about the world, ever invent qualia as a hypothesis? Assuming the actual mouth movements we make when we say things like, "Qualia exist" are explainable via the scientific method, the robot scientist could still predict that we would talk and write about consciousness. But would it posit consciousness as a separate entity altogether? Would it treat consciousness as a deep mystery, even after peering into our brains and finding nothing but electrical impulses?
2jessicata2yRobots take in observations. They make theories that explain their observations. Different robots will make different observations and communicate them to each other. Thus, they will talk about observations. After making enough observations they make theories of physics. (They had to talk about observations before they made low-level physics theories, though; after all, they came to theorize about physics through their observations). They also make bridge laws explaining how their observations are related to physics. But, they have uncertainty about these bridge laws for a significant time period. The robots theorize that humans are similar to them, based on the fact that they have functionally similar cognitive architecture; thus, they theorize that humans have observations as well. (The bridge laws they posit are symmetric that way, rather than being silicon-chauvinist)
1Matthew Barnett2yI think you are using the word "observation" to refer to consciousness. If this is true, then I do not deny that humans take in observations and process them. However, I think the issue is that you have simply re-defined consciousness into something which would be unrecognizable to the philosopher. To that extent, I don't say you are wrong, but I will allege that you have not done enough to respond to the consciousness-realist's intuition that consciousness is different from physical properties. Let me explain: If qualia are just observations, then it seems obvious that Mary is not missing any information in her room, since she can perfectly well understand and model the process by which people receive color observations. Likewise, if qualia are merely observations, then the Zombie argument [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie] amounts to saying that p-Zombies are beings which can't observe anything. This seems patently absurd to me, and doesn't seem like it's what Chalmers meant at all when he came up with the thought experiment. Likewise, if we were to ask, "Is a bat conscious?" then the answer would be a vacuous "yes" under your view, since they have echolocaters which take in observations and process information. In this view even my computer is conscious since it has a camera on it. For this reason, I suggest we are talking about two different things.
2jessicata2yMary's room seems uninteresting, in that robot-Mary can predict pretty well what bit-pattern she's going to get upon seeing color. (To the extent that the human case is different, it's because of cognitive architecture constraints) Regarding the zombie argument: The robots have uncertainty over the bridge laws. Under this uncertainty, they may believe it is possible that humans don't have experiences, due to the bridge laws only identifying silicon brains as conscious. Then humans would be zombies. (They may have other theories saying this is pretty unlikely / logically incoherent / etc) Basically, the robots have a primitive entity "my observations" that they explain using their theories. They have to reconcile this with the eventual conclusion they reach that their observations are those of a physically instantiated mind like other minds, and they have degrees of freedom in which things they consider "observations" of the same type as "my observations" (things that could have been observed).
1Matthew Barnett2yAs a qualia denier, I sometimes feel like I side more with the Chalmers side of the argument, which at least admits that there's a strong intuition for consciousness. It's not that I think that the realist side is right, but it's that I see the naive physicalists making statements that seem to completely misinterpret the realist's argument. I don't mean to single you out in particular. However, you state that Mary's room seems uninteresting because Mary is able to predict the "bit pattern" of color qualia. This seems to me to completely miss the point. When you look at the sky and see blue, is it immediately apprehensible as a simple bit pattern? Or does it at least seem to have qualitative properties too? I'm not sure how to import my argument onto your brain without you at least seeing this intuition, which is something I considered obvious for many years.
8jessicata2yThere is a qualitative redness to red. I get that intuition. I think "Mary's room is uninteresting" is wrong; it's uninteresting in the case of robot scientists, but interesting in the case of humans, in part because of what it reveals about human cognitive architecture. I think in the human case, I would see Mary seeing a red apple as gaining in expressive vocabulary rather than information. She can then describe future things as "like what I saw when I saw that first red apple". But, in the case of first seeing the apple, the redness quale is essentially an arbitrary gensym [http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_gensym.htm]. I suppose I might end up agreeing with the illusionist view on some aspects of color perception, then, in that I predict color quales might feel like new information when they actually aren't. Thanks for explaining.
5Raemon2yI am curious if you disagree with the claim [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/DLmhJbuhYek5rEhpH/mairy-s-room-ai-reasoning-to-solve-philosophical-problems#JBPchQnaw3yMpNsaS] that (human) Mary is gaining implicit information, in that (despite already knowing many facts about red-ness), her (human) optic system wouldn't have successfully been able to predict the incoming visual data from the apple before seeing it, but afterwards can?
2jessicata2yThat does seem right, actually. Now that I think about it, due to this cognitive architecture issue, she actually does gain new information. If she sees a red apple in the future, she can know that it's red (because it produces the same qualia as the first red apple), whereas she might be confused about the color if she hadn't seen the first apple. I think I got confused because, while she does learn something upon seeing the first red apple, it isn't the naive "red wavelengths are red-quale", it's more like "the neurons that detect red wavelengths got wired and associated with the abstract concept of red wavelengths." Which is still, effectively, new information to Mary-the-cognitive-system, given limitations in human mental architecture.
1Slider2yA physicist might discover that you can make computers out of matter. You can make such computers produce sounds. In processing sounds "homonym" is a perfectly legimate and useful concept. Even if two words are stored in far away hardware locations knowing that they will "sound detection clash" is important information. Even if you slice it a little differently and use different kinds of computer architechtures it woudl still be a real phenomenon. In technical terms there might be the issue whether its meaningful to differntiate between founded concepts and hypothesis. If hypotheses are required then you could have a physicist that didn't ever talk about temperature.
1Matthew Barnett2yIt seems to me that you are trying to recover the properties of conscious experience in a way that can be reduced to physics. Ultimately, I just feel that this approach is not likely to succeed without radical revisions to what you consider to be conscious experience. :) Generally speaking, I agree with the dualists who argue that physics is incompatible with the claimed properties of qualia. Unlike the dualists, I see this as a strike against qualia rather than a strike against physics. David Chalmers does a great job in his articles [http://consc.net/papers/nature.pdf] outlining why conscious properties don't fit nicely in our normal physical models. It's not simply that we are awaiting more data to fill in the details: it's that there seems to be no way even in principle to incorporate conscious experience into physics. Physics is just a different type of beast: it has no mental core, it is entirely made up of mathematical relations, and is completely global. Consciousness as it's described seems entirely inexplicable in that respect, and I don't see how it could possibly supervene on the physical. One could imagine a hypothetical heaven-believer (someone who claimed to have gone to heaven and back) listing possible ways to incorporate their experience into physics. They could say, On the other hand, a skeptic could reply that: Even if mind reading technology isn't good enough yet, our best models say that humans can be described as complicated computers with a particular neural network architecture. And we know that computers can have bugs in them causing them to say things when there is no logical justification. Also, we know that computers can lack perfect introspection so we know that even if it is utterly convinced that heaven is real, this could just be due to the fact that the computer is following its programming and is exceptionally stubborn. Heaven has no clear interpretation in our physical models. Yes, we could see that a supervenience is po
4jessicata2yIt seems that doubting that we have observations would cause us to doubt physics, wouldn't it? Since physics-the-discipline is about making, recording, communicating, and explaining observations. Why think we're in a physical world if our observations that seem to suggest we are are illusory? This is kind of like if the people saying we live in a material world arrived at these theories through their heaven-revelations, and can only explain the epistemic justification for belief in a material world by positing heaven. Seems odd to think heaven doesn't exist in this circumstance. (Note, personally I lean towards supervenient neutral monism: direct observation and physical theorizing are different modalities for interacting with the same substance, and mental properties supervene on physical ones in a currently-unknown way. Physics doesn't rule out observation, in fact it depends on it, while itself being a limited modality, such that it is unsurprising if you couldn't get all modalities through the physical-theorizing modality. This view seems non-contradictory, though incomplete.)
2Slider2yYou seem to have similar characteristic in your beliefs I encountered on less wrong before. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/TniCuWCDxQeqFSxut/arguments-for-the-existence-of-qualia-1?commentId=Zwyh8Xt5uaZ4ZBYbP [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/TniCuWCDxQeqFSxut/arguments-for-the-existence-of-qualia-1?commentId=Zwyh8Xt5uaZ4ZBYbP] There is the phenomenon of qualia and then there is the ontological extension. The word does not refer to the ontological extension. It would be like explaining lightning with lightning. Sure when we dig down there are non-lightning parts. But lightning still zaps people. Or it would be a category error like saying that if you can explain physics without coordinates by only positing that energy exists you should drop coordinates from your concepts. But coordinates are not a thing to believe in, it's a conceptual tool to specify claims not a hypothesis in itself. When physists believe in a particular field theory they are not agreeing with the greek philosphers that think that the world is made of a type of number.
2Matthew Barnett2yMy basic claim is that the way that people use the word qualia implicitly implies the ontological extensions. By using the term, you are either smuggling these extensions in, or you are using the term in a way that no philosopher uses it. Here are some intuitions: Qualia are private entities which occur to us and can't be inspected via third person science. Qualia are ineffable; you can't explain them using a sufficiently complex English or mathematical sentence. Qualia are intrinstic; you can't construct a quale if you had the right set of particles. etc. Now, that's not to say that you can't define qualia in such a way that these ontological extensions are avoided. But why do so? If you are simply re-defining the phenomenon, then you have not explained anything. The intuitions above still remain, and there is something still unexplained: namely, why people think that there are entities with the above properties. That's why I think that instead, the illusionist approach is the correct one. Let me quote Keith Frankish, who I think does a good job explaining this point of view, In the case of lightning, I think that the first approach would be correct, since lightning forms a valid physical category under which we can cast our scientific predictions of the world. In the case of the orbit of Uranus, the second approach is correct, since it was adequately explained by appealing to understood Newtonian physics. However, the third approach is most apt for bizarre phenomena that seem at first glance to be entirely incompatible with our physics. And qualia certainly fit the bill in that respect.
4gilch2yWhen I say "qualia" I mean individual instances of subjective, conscious experience full stop. These three extensions are not what I mean when I say "qualia". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not convinced of this. There are known neural correlates of consciousness. That our current brain scanners lack the required resolution to make them inspectable does not prove that they are not inspectable in principle. This seems to be a limitation of human language bandwidth/imagination, but not fundamental to what qualia are. Consider the case of the conjoined twins Krista and Tatiana, who share some brain structure and seem to be able "hear" each other's thoughts and see through each other's eyes. Suppose we set up a thought experiment. Suppose that they grow up in a room without color, like Mary's room. Now knock out Krista and show Tatiana something red. Remove the red thing before Krista wakes up. Wouldn't Tatiana be able to communicate the experience of red to her sister? That's an effable quale! And if they can do it, then in principle, so could you, with a future brain-computer interface. Really, communicating at all is a transfer of experience. We're limited by common ground, sure. We both have to be speaking the same language, and have to have enough experience to be able to imagine the other's mental state. Again, not convinced. Isn't your brain made of particles? I construct qualia all the time just by thinking about it. (It's called "imagination".) I don't see any reason in principle why this could not be done externally to the brain either.
1Slider2yThe Tatiana and krista experiment is quite interesting but stretches the concept of communication to it's limits. I am inclined to say that having a shared part of your conciousness is not communication in the same way that sharing a house is not traffic. It does strike me that communication involves directed construction of thoughts and it's easy to imagine that the scope of what this construction is capable would be vastly smaller than what goes on in the brain in other processes. Extending the construction to new types of thoughts might be a soft border rather than a hard one. With enough verbal sentences it should be in principle to be able to reconstruct an actual graphical image, but even with overtly descriptive prose this level is not really reached (I presume) but remains within the realm of sentence-like data structures. In the example Tatiana directs the visual cortex and Krista can just recall the representation later. But in a single conciouness brain nothing can be made "ready" but it must be assembled by the brain itself from sensory inputs. That is cognitive space probably has small funnels and for signficant objects they can't travel them as themselfs but must be chopped off into pieces and reassembled after passing the tube.
2gilch2yLet's extend the thought experiment a bit. Suppose technology is developed to separate the twins. They rely on their shared brain parts for vital functions, so where we cut nerve connections we replace them with a radio transceiver and electrode array in each twin. Now they are communicating thoughts via a prosthesis. Is that not communication? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe you already know what it is like to be a hive mind with a shared consciousness, because you are one: cutting the corpus callosum creates a split-brained patient that seems to have two different personalities that don't always agree with each other. Maybe there are some connections left, but the bandwidth has been drastically reduced. And even within hemispheres, the brain seems to be composed of yet smaller modules. Your mind is made of parts that communicate with each other and share experience, and some of it is conscious. I think the line dividing individual persons is a soft one. A sufficiently high-bandwidth communication interface can blur that boundary, even to the point of fusing consciousness like brain hemispheres. Shared consciousness means shared qualia, even if that connection is later severed, you might still remember what it was like to be the other person. And in that way, qualia could hypothetically be communicated between individuals, or even species.
1Slider2yIf you would copy my brain but make it twice as large that copy would be as "lonely" as I would be and this would remain after arbitrary doublings. Single individuals can be extended in space without communicating with other individuals. The "extended wire" thought experiement doesn't specify enough how that physical communication line is used. It's plausible that there is no "verbalization" process like there is an step to write an email if one replaces sonic communication with ip-packet communication. With huge relative distance would come speed of light delays, if one twin was on earth and another on the moon there would be a round trip latency of seconds which probably would distort how the combined brain works. (And I guess with doublign in size would need to come with proportionate slowing to have same function). I think there is a difference between a information system being spatially extended and having two information systems interface with each other. Say that you have 2 routers or 10 routers on the same length of line. It makes sense to make a distinction that each routers functions "independently" even if they have to be able to suggest each other enough that packets flow throught. To the first router the world "downline" seems very similar whether or not intermediate routers exist. I don't count information system internal processing as communicating thus I don't count "thinking" into communicating. Thus the 10 router version does more communicating than the 2 router version. I think the "verbalization" step does mean that even highbandwidth connection doesn't automatically mean qualia sharing. I am thinking of plugings that allow programming languages to share code. Even if there is a perfect 1-to-1 compatibility between the abstractions of the languages I think still each language only ever manipulates their version of that representation. Cross-using without translation would make it illdefined what would be correct function but if you do transla
2gilch2yI am assuming that the twins communicating thoughts requires an act of will like speaking does. I do have reasons for this. Watching their faces when they communicate thoughts makes it seem voluntary. But most of what you are doing when speaking is already subconscious: One can "understand" the rules of grammar well enough to form correct sentences on nearly all attempts, and yet be unable to explain the rules to a computer program (or to a child or ESL student). There is an element of will, but it's only an element. It may be the case that even with a high-bandwidth direct-brain interface it would take a lot of time and practice to understand another's thoughts. Humans have a common cognitive architecture by virtue of shared genes, but most of our individual connectomes are randomized and shaped by individual experience. Our internal representations may thus be highly idiosyncratic, meaning a direct interface would be ad-hoc and only work on one person. How true this is, I can only speculate without more data. In your programming language analogy, these data types are only abstractions built on top of a more fundamental CPU architecture where the only data types are bytes. Maybe an implementation of C# could be made that uses exactly the same bit pattern for an int as Haskell does. Human neurons work pretty much the same way across individuals, and even cortical columns seem to use the same architecture. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think the inability to communicate qualia is primarily due to the limitation of language, but due to the limitation of imagination. I can explain what a tesseract is, but that doesn't mean you can visualize it. I could give you analogies with lower dimensions. Maybe you could understand well enough to make a mental model that gives you good predictions, but you still can't visualize it. Similarly, I could explain what it's like to be a tetrachromat, how septarine and octa
2Slider2ySure the difference between hearing about a tesseract and being able to visualise it is significant but I think the difference might not be an impossibility barrier but just skill level of imagination. Having learned some echolocation my qualia involved in hearing have changed and it makes it seem possible to be able to make a similar transition from a trichromat visual space into a tetrachromat visual space. The weird thing about it is that my ear receives as much information that it did before but I just pay attention to it differently. Having deficient understanding in the sense of getting things wrong is easy line to draw. But it seems at some point the understanding becomes vivid instead of theorethical.
1TAG2yI'm pretty sure that's not what "intrinisc" is supposed to mean. From "The Qualities of Qualia" by David de Leon.
1Slider2yI find it important in philosophy to be on the clear what you mean. It is one thing to explain and another to define what you mean. You might point to a yellow object and say yellow and somebody that misunderstood might think that you mean "roundness" by yellow. The accuracy is most important when the views are radical and talk in very different worlds. And "disproving" yellow by not being able to pick it out from ostensive differentation is not an argumentative victory but a communicative failure. Even if we use some other term I think that meaning is important to have. "Plogiston" might sneak in claims but that is just the more reason to have terms that have as little room for smuggling as possible. And we still need good terms to talk about burning. "oxygen" literally means "black maker" but we nowadays understand it as a term to refer to a element which has definitionally very little to do with the color black. I think the starting point that generated the word refers to a genuine problem. Having qualia in category three would mean that you claim that I do not have experiences. And if qualia is a bad loaded word to refer to the thing to be explained it would be good to make up a new term that refers to that. But to me qualia was just that word. I word like "dark matter" might experience similar "highjack pressure" by having wild claims thrown around about it. And there having things like "warm dark matter", "wimpy dark matter" makes the classification more fine making the conceptual analysis proceed. But requirements of clear thinking are different from tradition preservance. If you say that "warm dark matter" can't be the answer the question of dark matter still stands. Even if you succesfully argue that "qualia" can't be a attractive concept the issue of me not being a p-zombie still remains and it would be expected that some theorethical bending over backwards would happen.
2TAG2yThat argument has an inverse: "If we are able to explain why you believe in, and talk about an external without referring to an external world whatsoever in our explanation, then we should reject the existence of an external world as a hypothesis". People want reductive explanation to be unidirectional,so that you have an A and a B, and clearly it is the B which is redundant and can be replaced with A. But not all explanations work in that convenient way...sometimes A and B are mutually redundant, in the sense that you don't need both. The moral of the story being to look for the overall best explanation, not just eliminate redundancy.
1Chris_Leong2yIt's a strong argument, but there are strong arguments on the other side as well.

"Immortality is cool and all, but our universe is going to run down from entropy eventually"

I consider this argument wrong for two reasons. The first is the obvious reason, which is that even if immortality is impossible, it's still better to live for a long time.

The second reason why I think this argument is wrong is because I'm currently convinced that literal physical immortality is possible in our universe. Usually when I say this out loud I get an audible "what" or something to that effect, but I'm not kidding.

It&#x... (read more)

2gilch2yIn one scene in Egan's Permutation City, the Peer character experienced "infinity" when he set himself up in an infinite loop such that his later experience matched up perfectly with the start of the loop (walking down the side of an infinitely tall building, if I recall). But he also experienced the loop ending.
2Raemon2yI don't know of physics rules ruling this out. However, I suspect this doesn't resolve the problems that the people I know who care most about immortality are worried about. (I'm not sure – I haven't heard them express clear preferences about what exactly they prefer on the billions/trillions year timescale. But they seem more concerned running out of ability to have new experiences than not-wanting-to-die-in-particular.) My impression is many of the people who care about this sort of thing also tend to think that if you have multiple instances of the exact same thing, it just counts as a single instance. (Or, something more complicated about many worlds and increasing your measure)
1Matthew Barnett2yI agree with the objection. :) Personally I'm not sure whether I'd want to be stuck in a loop of experiences repeating over and over forever. However, even if we considered "true" immortality, repeat experiences are inevitable simply because there's a finite number of possible experiences. So, we'd have to start repeating things eventually.
2gilch2yVirtual particles "pop into existence" in matter/antimatter pairs and then "pop out" as they annihilate each other all the time. In one interpretation, an electron positron pair (for example) can be thought of as one electron that loops around and goes back in time. Due to CPS symmetry, this backward path looks like a positron. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dqtW9MslFk [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dqtW9MslFk]
2gilch2yIt sounds like you're talking about time travel. These "worms" are called "worldlines". Spacetime is not simply R^4. You can rotate in the fourth dimension--this is just acceleration. But you can't accelerate enough to turn around and bite your own tail because rotations in the fourth dimension are hyperbolic rather than circular. You can't exceed or even reach light speed. There are solutions to General Relativity that contain closed timelike curves, but it's not clear if they correspond to anything physically realizable.
1Slider2yI have a previous high impliciation uncertainty about this (that would be a crux?). " you can't accelerate enough to turn around " seems false to me. The mathematical rotation seems like it ought to exist. The prevoius reasons I thought such a mathematical rotation would be impossible I have signficantly less faith in. If I draw a unit sphere analog in spacetime having a visual observation from the space-time diagram drawn on euclid paper is not sufficient to conclude that the future cone is far from past cone. And thinking that a sphere is "all within r distance" it would seem it should be continuous and simply connected under most instances. I think there also should exist a transformation that when repeated enough times returns to the original configuration. And I find it surprising that a boost like transformation would fail to be like that if it is a rotation analog. I have started to believe that the standrd reasoning why you can't go faster than light relies on a kind of faulty logic. With normal euclidean geometry it would go like: there is a maximum angle you can reach by increasing the y-coordinate and slope is just the ratio of x to y so at that maximum y maximum slope is reached so maximum angle that you can have is 90 degrees. So if you try to go at 100 degrees you have lesser y and are actually going slower. And in a way 90 degrees is kind of the maximum amount you can point in another direction. But normally degrees go up to 180 or 360 degrees. In the relativity side c is the maximum ratio but that is for coordinate time. If somebodys proper time would start pointing in a direction that would project negatively on the coordinate time axis the comparison between x per coordinate time and x per proper time would become significant. There is also a trajectory which seems to be timelike in all segments. A=(0,0,0,0),(2,1,0,0),B=(4,2,0,0),(2,3,0,0),C=(0,4,0,0),(2,5,0,0),D=(4,6,0,0). It would seem awfully a lot like the "corner" A B C would be of equal ma
1Matthew Barnett2yI agree I would not be able to actually accomplish time travel. The point is whether we could construct some object in Minkowski space (or whatever General Relativity uses, I'm not a physicist) that we considered to be loop-like. I don't think it's worth my time to figure out whether this is really possible, but I suspect that something like it may be. Edit: I want to say that I do not have an intuition for physics or spacetime at all. My main reason for thinking this is possible is mainly that I think my idea is fairly minimal: I think you might be able to do this even in R^3.
1TAG2yNietzsche go to the there first. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return]

I have discovered recently that while I am generally tired and groggy in the morning, I am well rested and happy after a nap. I am unsure if this matches other people's experiences, and haven't explored much research. Still, I think this is interesting to think about fully.

What is the best way to apply this knowledge? I am considering purposely sabotaging my sleep so that I am tired enough to take a nap by noon, which would refresh me for the entire day. But this plan may have some significant drawbacks, including being excessively tired for a few hours in the morning.

2Raemon2yI'm assuming from context you're universally groggy in the morning no matter how much sleep you get? (i.e. you've tried the obvious thing of just 'sleep more'?)
1Matthew Barnett2yPretty much, yes. Even with 10+ hours of sleep I am not as refreshed as a nap. It's weird, but I think it's a real effect.
1eigen2yTwo easy things you can try to feel less groggy in the morning are: * Drinking a full glass of water as soon as you wake up. * Listening to music or a podcast (bluetooth earphones work great here!). Music does the trick for me, although I'm usually not in the mood and I prefer a podcast. About taking naps, while it seems to work for some people, I'm generally against it since it usually impairs my circadian clock greatly (I cannot keep consistent times and meddles with my schedule too much). At nights, I take melatonin [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E4cKD9iTWHaE7f3AJ/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know] and it seems to have been of great help to keep consistent times at which I go to sleep (taking it with L-Theanine seems to be better for me somehow). Besides that, I do pay a lot of attention to other zeitgebers [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeber] such as exercise, eating behavior, light exposure, and coffee. This is to say—regulating your circadian clock may be what you're looking for. A link of interest is gwern's post about vitamin d experiment [https://www.gwern.net/zeo/Vitamin-D] and other posts about sleep [https://www.gwern.net/tags/Zeo] also.