Should we expect rationality to be, on some level, simple?  Should we search and hope for underlying beauty in the arts of belief and choice?

Let me introduce this issue by borrowing a complaint of the late great Bayesian Master, E. T. Jaynes (1990):

"Two medical researchers use the same treatment independently, in different hospitals.  Neither would stoop to falsifying the data, but one had decided beforehand that because of finite resources he would stop after treating N=100 patients, however many cures were observed by then.  The other had staked his reputation on the efficacy of the treatment, and decided he would not stop until he had data indicating a rate of cures definitely greater than 60%, however many patients that might require.  But in fact, both stopped with exactly the same data:  n = 100 [patients], r = 70 [cures].  Should we then draw different conclusions from their experiments?"  (Presumably the two control groups also had equal results.)

According to old-fashioned statistical procedure - which I believe is still being taught today - the two researchers have performed different experiments with different stopping conditions.  The two experiments could have terminated with different data, and therefore represent different tests of the hypothesis, requiring different statistical analyses.  It's quite possible that the first experiment will be "statistically significant", the second not.

Whether or not you are disturbed by this says a good deal about your attitude toward probability theory, and indeed, rationality itself.

Non-Bayesian statisticians might shrug, saying, "Well, not all statistical tools have the same strengths and weaknesses, y'know - a hammer isn't like a screwdriver - and if you apply different statistical tools you may get different results, just like using the same data to compute a linear regression or train a regularized neural network.  You've got to use the right tool for the occasion.  Life is messy -"

And then there's the Bayesian reply:  "Excuse you?  The evidential impact of a fixed experimental method, producing the same data, depends on the researcher's private thoughts?  And you have the nerve to accuse us of being 'too subjective'?"

If Nature is one way, the likelihood of the data coming out the way we have seen will be one thing.  If Nature is another way, the likelihood of the data coming out that way will be something else.  But the likelihood of a given state of Nature producing the data we have seen, has nothing to do with the researcher's private intentions.  So whatever our hypotheses about Nature, the likelihood ratio is the same, and the evidential impact is the same, and the posterior belief should be the same, between the two experiments.  At least one of the two Old Style methods must discard relevant information - or simply do the wrong calculation - for the two methods to arrive at different answers.

The ancient war between the Bayesians and the accursèd frequentists stretches back through decades, and I'm not going to try to recount that elder history in this blog post.

But one of the central conflicts is that Bayesians expect probability theory to be... what's the word I'm looking for?  "Neat?"  "Clean?"  "Self-consistent?"

As Jaynes says, the theorems of Bayesian probability are just that, theorems in a coherent proof system.  No matter what derivations you use, in what order, the results of Bayesian probability theory should always be consistent - every theorem compatible with every other theorem.

If you want to know the sum of 10 + 10, you can redefine it as (2 * 5) + (7 + 3) or as (2 * (4 + 6)) or use whatever other legal tricks you like, but the result always has to come out to be the same, in this case, 20.  If it comes out as 20 one way and 19 the other way, then you may conclude you did something illegal on at least one of the two occasions.  (In arithmetic, the illegal operation is usually division by zero; in probability theory, it is usually an infinity that was not taken as a the limit of a finite process.)

If you get the result 19 = 20, look hard for that error you just made, because it's unlikely that you've sent arithmetic itself up in smoke.  If anyone should ever succeed in deriving a real contradiction from Bayesian probability theory - like, say, two different evidential impacts from the same experimental method yielding the same results - then the whole edifice goes up in smoke.  Along with set theory, 'cause I'm pretty sure ZF provides a model for probability theory.

Math!  That's the word I was looking for.  Bayesians expect probability theory to be math.  That's why we're interested in Cox's Theorem and its many extensions, showing that any representation of uncertainty which obeys certain constraints has to map onto probability theory.  Coherent math is great, but unique math is even better.

And yet... should rationality be math?  It is by no means a foregone conclusion that probability should be pretty.  The real world is messy - so shouldn't you need messy reasoning to handle it?  Maybe the non-Bayesian statisticians, with their vast collection of ad-hoc methods and ad-hoc justifications, are strictly more competent because they have a strictly larger toolbox.  It's nice when problems are clean, but they usually aren't, and you have to live with that.

After all, it's a well-known fact that you can't use Bayesian methods on many problems because the Bayesian calculation is computationally intractable.  So why not let many flowers bloom?  Why not have more than one tool in your toolbox?

That's the fundamental difference in mindset.  Old School statisticians thought in terms of tools, tricks to throw at particular problems.  Bayesians - at least this Bayesian, though I don't think I'm speaking only for myself - we think in terms of laws.

Looking for laws isn't the same as looking for especially neat and pretty tools.  The second law of thermodynamics isn't an especially neat and pretty refrigerator.

The Carnot cycle is an ideal engine - in fact, the ideal engine.  No engine powered by two heat reservoirs can be more efficient than a Carnot engine.  As a corollary, all thermodynamically reversible engines operating between the same heat reservoirs are equally efficient.

But, of course, you can't use a Carnot engine to power a real car.  A real car's engine bears the same resemblance to a Carnot engine that the car's tires bear to perfect rolling cylinders.

Clearly, then, a Carnot engine is a useless tool for building a real-world car.  The second law of thermodynamics, obviously, is not applicable here.  It's too hard to make an engine that obeys it, in the real world.  Just ignore thermodynamics - use whatever works.

This is the sort of confusion that I think reigns over they who still cling to the Old Ways.

No, you can't always do the exact Bayesian calculation for a problem.  Sometimes you must seek an approximation; often, indeed.  This doesn't mean that probability theory has ceased to apply, any more than your inability to calculate the aerodynamics of a 747 on an atom-by-atom basis implies that the 747 is not made out of atoms.  Whatever approximation you use, it works to the extent that it approximates the ideal Bayesian calculation - and fails to the extent that it departs.

Bayesianism's coherence and uniqueness proofs cut both ways.  Just as any calculation that obeys Cox's coherency axioms (or any of the many reformulations and generalizations) must map onto probabilities, so too, anything that is not Bayesian must fail one of the coherency tests.  This, in turn, opens you to punishments like Dutch-booking (accepting combinations of bets that are sure losses, or rejecting combinations of bets that are sure gains).

You may not be able to compute the optimal answer.  But whatever approximation you use, both its failures and successes will be explainable in terms of Bayesian probability theory.  You may not know the explanation; that does not mean no explanation exists.

So you want to use a linear regression, instead of doing Bayesian updates?  But look to the underlying structure of the linear regression, and you see that it corresponds to picking the best point estimate given a Gaussian likelihood function and a uniform prior over the parameters.

You want to use a regularized linear regression, because that works better in practice?  Well, that corresponds (says the Bayesian) to having a Gaussian prior over the weights.

Sometimes you can't use Bayesian methods literally; often, indeed.  But when you can use the exact Bayesian calculation that uses every scrap of available knowledge, you are done.  You will never find a statistical method that yields a better answer.  You may find a cheap approximation that works excellently nearly all the time, and it will be cheaper, but it will not be more accurate.  Not unless the other method uses knowledge, perhaps in the form of disguised prior information, that you are not allowing into the Bayesian calculation; and then when you feed the prior information into the Bayesian calculation, the Bayesian calculation will again be equal or superior.

When you use an Old Style ad-hoc statistical tool with an ad-hoc (but often quite interesting) justification, you never know if someone else will come up with an even more clever tool tomorrow.  But when you can directly use a calculation that mirrors the Bayesian law, you're done - like managing to put a Carnot heat engine into your car.  It is, as the saying goes, "Bayes-optimal".

It seems to me that the toolboxers are looking at the sequence of cubes {1, 8, 27, 64, 125, ...} and pointing to the first differences {7, 19, 37, 61, ...} and saying "Look, life isn't always so neat - you've got to adapt to circumstances."  And the Bayesians are pointing to the third differences, the underlying stable level {6, 6, 6, 6, 6, ...}.  And the critics are saying, "What the heck are you talking about?  It's 7, 19, 37 not 6, 6, 6.  You are oversimplifying this messy problem; you are too attached to simplicity."

It's not necessarily simple on a surface level.  You have to dive deeper than that to find stability.

Think laws, not tools.  Needing to calculate approximations to a law doesn't change the law.  Planes are still atoms, they aren't governed by special exceptions in Nature for aerodynamic calculations.  The approximation exists in the map, not in the territory.  You can know the second law of thermodynamics, and yet apply yourself as an engineer to build an imperfect car engine.  The second law does not cease to be applicable; your knowledge of that law, and of Carnot cycles, helps you get as close to the ideal efficiency as you can.

We aren't enchanted by Bayesian methods merely because they're beautiful.  The beauty is a side effect.  Bayesian theorems are elegant, coherent, optimal, and provably unique because they are laws.

AddendumCyan directs us to chapter 37 of MacKay's excellent statistics book, free online, for a more thorough explanation of the opening problem.


Jaynes, E. T. (1990.) Probability Theory as Logic. In: P. F. Fougere (Ed.), Maximum Entropy and Bayesian Methods. Kluwer Academic Publishers.

MacKay, D. (2003.) Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

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"This doesn't mean that probability theory has ceased to apply, any more than your inability to calculate the aerodynamics of a 747 on an atom-by-atom basis implies that the 747 is made out of atoms" should read "... is not made out of atoms."

Eliezer,

I like your essays, but I feel that you are really beating a naive and unsophisticated frequentist straw man (straw person, politically correctly speaking). I think that the answer to the question "Should we draw different conclusions?" depends on some further assumptions about the process and about the type of conclusions we want to make. What kind of frequentist would think that his research is free of subjective assumptions? A naive one.

I admit that I am out of my depth and I would like to know more about Jaynes example.

3Insert_Idionym_Here
I cannot speak for Eliezer, but I can speak from my experience. Because you are reading what appears to be only one side of an issue, you cannot get all the facts. Whatever he may write, he cannot write beyond the constraints of the information he currently possesses. If you want to have the whole picture, you need to talk to, and observe, everything, and everyone, not just this blog. So, perhaps Eliezer is beating a straw man. Go talk to some more people, gather some more information, and find out.

To answer your story about data:

One person decides on a conclusion and then tries to write the most persuasive argument for that conclusion.

Another person begins to write an argument by considering evidence, analyzing it, and then comes to a conclusion based on the analysis.

Both of those people type up their arguments and put them in your mailbox. As it happens, both arguments happen to be identical.

Are you telling me the first person's argument carries the exact same weight as the second?

In other words, yes, the researcher's private thoughts do matter, because P(observation|researcher 1) != P(observation|researcher 2) even though the observations are the same.

I think that's the proper Bayesian objection, anyway.

-1Kenny
How can anyone other than the researchers themselves distinguish between them if their thoughts are private? I understand "private thoughts" to imply that there are no other observable differences between the two researchers.
7homunq
But in the Jaynes example we're talking about, there are clear observable differences. One had announced that he would continue until he got a certain proportion of success, the other had announced that he would stop at 100. The key is that Jaynes gives a further piece of data: that somehow we know that "Neither would stoop to falsifying the data". In Bayesian terms, this information, if reliable, screens out our knowledge that their plans had differed. But in real life, you're never 100% certain that "neither would stoop to falsifying the data", especially when there's often more wiggle room than you'd realize about exactly which data get counted how. In that sense, a rigorous pre-announced plan may be useful evidence about whether there's funny business going on. The reviled "frequentist" assumptions, then, can be expressed in Bayesian terms as a prior distribution that assumes that researchers cheat whenever the rules aren't clear. That's clearly over-pessimistic in many cases (though over-optimistic in others; some researchers cheat even when the rules ARE clear); but, like other heuristics of "significance", it has some value in developing a "scientific consensus" that doesn't need to be updated minute-by-minute. In general: sure, the world is Bayesian. But that doesn't mean that frequentist math isn't math. Good frequentist statistics is better than bad Bayesian statistics any day, and anyone who shuts their ears or perks them up just based on a simplistic label is doing themselves a disservice.
-1Vanilla_cabs
But, that's the thing : P(observation|researcher 1) = P(observation|researcher 2) The individual patient results would not change whether it is researcher 1 or 2 leading the experiment. And given the 100 results that they had, both researchers would (and did) proceed exactly the same.
4Idan Arye
Maybe the second researcher was one of 20 researchers using the same approach, and he is the only one with a 70% success rate - the other 19 had success rates of about 1%. We have never heard of these other researchers, because having failed to reach 60% they are researching to this very day and are likely to never publish their results. When you have 10,000 cures out of a million patients, it'd take a nearly impossible lucky streak to be able to get nearly a million and a half more successes without getting a billion more failures along the way, given the likely probability of 1% and assuming you are using the same cure and not optimizing it along the research (which will make it a different beast entirely) So, if we combine all the tests of all the 20 researches together, we have 70+19⋅10000=190070 cures out of 100+19⋅1000000=19000100 patients giving us a success rate of 19007019000100≈1.00036%. But the fact that only our one researcher has published cherry-picks the tiny fraction of that data to get a 70% success rate. Compare to the first researcher, who would have published anyway testing 100 patients - so if there were 19 more like him who would get 1% success rate they would still publish, and a meta research could show more accurate results. This is an actual problem with science publications - journals are more likely to publish successful results than null results, effectively cherry-picking the results from the successful researches.
-1Vanilla_cabs
Maybe. But to assume any of that, you would need additional knoweledge. In the real world, in an actual case, you might have checked that there are 19 other researchers who used the same approach and that they all hid their findings. Whatever that additional knoweledge is that's allowing you to infer 19 hidden motivated researchers where only 1 is given, that is what gives you the ≈1% result.
4Idan Arye
I'm not inferring 19 more motivated researchers - that was just an example (the number 20 was picked because the standard threshold for significance is 5% which means one of out 20 researches that achieved this will be wrong). What I do infer is an unknown number of motivated researchers. The key assumption here is that had the motivated researcher failed to meet the desired results, he would have kept researching without publishing and we would not know about his research. This implies that we do not know about any motivated researcher that failed to achieve their desired results - hence we can assume an unknown number of them. The same cannot be said about the frugal researcher. If there were more frugal researchers but they all failed, they would have still published once they reached 100 patients and we would have still heard of them - so the fact we don't know about more frugal researchers really does mean there aren't any more frugal researchers. Note that if my assumption is wrong, and in the other Everett branch where the motivated researcher failed we would have still known about his forever ongoing research, then in that case there really was no difference between them, because we could assign to the fact the motivated researcher is still researching the same meaning we assign to the frugal researcher publishing failed results. ------- Consider a third researcher - one that's not as ethical as the first two, and plans on cherry-picking his results. But he decides he can be technically ethical if instead of cherry-picking the results inside each research he'd just cherry-pick the researches with desirable results. His plan is to research 100 patients, and if he can cure more than 60% of them he'll publish. Otherwise he'll just throw scrap that research's results and start a brand new research, with the same treatment but still technically a new research. That third researcher is publishing results - it's 70 cures out of 100 patients. We know about his

95% confidence means that if you repeat the experiment you get the right answer 95% of the time.

That depends on your thoughts because what counts as a success comes up in the repeats.

The experiment itself does not tell you what would have counted as a success. It simply is. No confidence concept applies.

Emil, thanks, fixed.

Doug, your analogy is not valid because a biased reporting method has a different likelihood function to the possible prior states, compared to an unbiased one. In this case the single, fixed dataset that we see, has a different likelihood to the possible prior states, depending on the reporting method.

If a researcher who happens to be thinking biased thoughts carries out a fixed sequence of experimental actions, the resulting dataset we see does not have a different likelihood function to the possible prior states. All that a Bayesian needs to know is the experimental actions that were actually carried out and the data that was actually observed - not what the researcher was thinking at the time, or what other actions the researcher might have performed if things had gone differently, or what other dataset might then have been observed. We need only consider the actual experimental results.

Londenio, see Ron's comment - it's not a strawperson.

3Zian
Great point but I worry that people will point to this post and say "See? Publication bias/questionable study design/corporate funding/varying peer review processes don't matter!" In other words, it's good to strive for a fixed experimental process but reality is rarely that tidy.
9yrudoy
Just a note here: the fact that a dataset has the same likelihood function regardless of the procedure that produced it is actually NOT a trivial statement - the way I see it, it a somewhat deep result which follows from the optional stopping theorem and the fact that the likelihood function is bounded. Not trying to nitpick, just pointing out that there is something to think about here. According to my initial intuitions, this was actually rather surprising - I didn't expect experimental results constructed using biased data (in the sense of non-fixed stopping time) to end up yielding unbiased results, even with full disclosure of all data.
-2Eliezer Yudkowsky
It's worth revising your intuitions if you found if surprising that a fixed physical act had the same likelihood to data regardless of researcher thoughts. It is indeed possible to see the mathematical result as "obvious at a glance".
4yrudoy
That's not quite what I meant. It is not the experimenter's thoughts that I am uncomfortable with- it is the collection of possible experimental outcomes. I will try to illustrate with an example. Let us say that I toss a coin either (i) two times, or (ii) until it comes up heads. In the first case, the possible outcomes are HH, HT, TH, or TT; in the second case, they are H, TH, TTH, TTTH, TTTTH, etc. It isn't obvious to me that a TH outcome has the same meaning in both cases. If, for instance, we were not talking about likelihood and instead decided to measure something else, e.g. the portion of tosses landing on heads, this wouldn't be the case; in scenario (i), the expected portion of tosses landing on heads is 1/4 + .5/4 + .5/4 + 0/4 = .5, but in scenario (ii), it would be 1/2 + .5/4 + (1/3)/8 + .25/16 + ... = log(2); i.e. a little under .7.
1Eliezer Yudkowsky
The TH outcome tells you the same thing about the coin because the coin does not know what your plans were like.
3Yaakov T
Does the publication of the result tell you the same thing, since the fact that it was published is a result of the plans?
5yrudoy
I think in this case, we are assuming total and honest reporting of results (including publication); otherwise, we would be back to the story of filtered evidence. Therefore, the publication is not a result of the plans - it was going to happen in either case.
3Yaakov T
Thanks, I understood the mathematical point but was wondering if there is any practical significance since it seems in the real world that we cannot make such an assumption, and that in the real world we should trust the results of the two researchers differently (since the one researcher likely published no matter what, whereas the second probably only published the experiments which came out favorably (even if he didn't publish false information)). What is the practical import of this idea? In the real world with all of people's biases shouldn't we distinguish between the two researchers as a general heuristic for good research standards? (If this is addressed in a different post on this site feel free to point me there since I have not read the majority of the site)
6yrudoy
I'm convinced. Having though about this a little more, I think I see the model you are working under, and it does make a good deal of intuitive sense.
1VAuroch
You can claim that it should have the same likelihood either way, but you have to put the discrepancy somewhere. Knowing the choice of stopping rule is evidence about the experimenter's state of knowledge about the efficacy. You can say that it should be treated as a separate piece of evidence, or that knowing about the stopping rule should change your prior, but if you don't bring it in somewhere, you're ignoring critical information.
3Cyan
No, it practical terms it's negligible. There's a reason that double-blind trials are the gold standard -- it's because doctors are as prone to cognitive biases as anyone else. Let me put it this way: recently a pair of doctors looked at the available evidence and concluded (foolishly!) that putting fecal bacteria in the brains of brain cancer patients was such a promising experimental treatment that they did an end-run around the ethics review process -- and after leaving that job under a cloud, one of them was still considered a "star free agent". Well, perhaps so -- but I think this little episode illustrates very well that a doctor's unsupported opinion about the efficacy of his or her novel experimental treatment isn't worth the shit s/he wants to place inside your skull.
5EHeller
Hold on- aren't you saying the choice of experimental rule is VERY important (i.e. double blind vs. not double blind,etc)? If so you are agreeing with VAuroch. You have to include the details of the experiment somewhere. The data does not speak for itself.
2Cyan
Of course experimental design is very important in general. But VAuroch and I agree that when two designs give rise to the same likelihood function, the information that comes in from the data are equivalent. We disagree about the weight to give to the information that comes in from what the choice of experimental design tells us about the experimenter's prior state of knowledge.
2VAuroch
Double-blind trials aren't the gold standard, they're the best available standard. They still don't replicate far too often, because they don't remove bias (and I'm not just referring to publication bias). Which is why, when considering how to interpret a study, you look at the history of what scientific positions the experimenter has supported in the past, and then update away from that to compensate for bias which you have good reason to think will show up in their data. In the example, past results suggest that, even if the trial was double-blind, someone who is committed to achieving a good result for the treatment will get more favorable data than some other experimenter with no involvement. And that's on top of the trivial fact that someone with an interest in getting a successful trial is more likely to use a directionally-slanted stopping rule if they have doubts about the efficacy than if they are confident it will work, which is not explicitly relevant in Eliezer's example.
0Cyan
I can't say I disagree.
4Idan Arye
I think I figured where the source of confusion is. From the wording of the problem I assume that: * The first researcher is going to publish anyways once he reaches 100 patients, no matter what the results are. * The second researcher will continue as long as he doesn't meet his desired ratio, and had he not reached these results - he would continue forever without publishing and we'd never even heard of his experiment. For the first researcher, a failure would update our belief in the treatment's effectiveness downward and a success would update it upward. For the second researcher, a failure will not update our belief - because we wouldn't even know the research existed - so for a success to update our belief upward would violate the Conservation of Expected Evidence. But - if we do know about the second researcher's experiment, we can interpret the fact that he didn't publish as a failure to reach a sufficient ratio of success, and update our belief down - which makes it meaningful to update our belief up when he publishes the results. So - it's not about state of mind - it's about the researchers actions in other Everett branches where their experiments failed.

Something popped into my mind while I was reading about the example in the very beginning. What about research that goes out to prove one thing, but discovers something else?

Group of scientists want to see if there's a link between the consumption of Coca-Cola and stomach cancer. They put together a huge questionnaire full of dozens of questions and have 1000 people fill it out. Looking at the data they discover that there is no correlation between Coca-Cola drinking and stomach cancer, but there is a correlation between excessive sneezing and having large... (read more)

2Baruta07
Before they publish anything (other than a article on Coca-Cola not being related to stomach cancer) they should first use a different test group in order to determine that the first result wasn't a sampling fluke or otherwise biased, (Perhaps sneezing wasn't causing large ears after all, or large ears were correlated to something that also caused sneezing.) What brought the probability to your attention in the first place shouldn't be what proves it. If A then B is a separate experiment than If C then D and should require separate additional proof.
[-]Kindly130

That's a useful heuristic to combat our tendency to see patterns that aren't there. It's not strictly necessary.

Another way to solve the same problem is to look at the first 500 questionnaires first. The scientists then notice that there is a correlation between excessive sneezing and large ears. Now the scientists look at the last 500 questionnaires -- an independent experiment. If these questionnaires also show correlation, that is also evidence for the hypothesis, although it's necessarily weaker than if another 1000-person poll were conducted.

So this shows that a second experiment isn't necessary if we think ahead. Now the question is, if we've already foolishly looked at all 1000 results, is there any way to recover?

It turns out that what can save us is math. There's a bunch of standard tests for significance when lots of variables are compared. But the basic idea is the following: we can test if the correlation between sneezing and ears is high, by computing our prior for what sort of correlation the two most closely correlated variables would show.

Note that although our prior for two arbitrary variables might be centered at 0 correlation, our prior for two variables that ar... (read more)

4Baruta07
Okay, that makes tons more sense, I apparently wasn't thinking too clearly when I wrote the first post. (plus I didn't know about the standard tests) Thanks for setting me straight.
0Houshalter
There is other information to consider though. If there really was a correlation it's likely others would have noticed it in their studies. The fact that you haven't heard of it before suggests a lower prior probability. Eventually someone just by chance will stumble upon seeming correlations that aren't really there. If you only publish when you find a correlation but not when you don't, then publication bias is created.
1alex_zag_al
I have no idea about what's done in actual statistical practice, but it seems to make sense to do this: Publish the likelihood ratio for each correlation. The likelihood ratio for the correlation being real and replicable will be very high. Since they bothered to do the test, you can figure that people in the know have decently sized prior odds for the association being real and replicable. There must have been animal studies or a biochemical argument or something. Consequently, a high likelihood ratio for this hypothesis may been enough to convinced them - that is, when it's multiplied with the prior, the resulting posterior may have been high enough to represent the "I'm convinced" state of knowledge. But the prior odds for the correlation being real and replicable are the same tiny prior odds you would have for any equally unsupported correlation. When they combine the likelihood ratio with their prior odds they do end up with a much higher posterior odds for than they do for other arbitrary-seeming correlations. But, still insignificant. The critical thing that distinguishes the two hypotheses is whatever previous evidence led them to attempt the test; that's why the prior for the association is higher. It's subjective only in the sense that it depends on what you've already seen - it doesn't depend on your thoughts. Whereas, in what Kindly says is the standard solution, you apply a different test depending upon what the researcher's intentions were. (I have no idea how you would calculate the prior odds. I mean, Solomonoff induction with your previous observations is the Carnot engine for doing it, but I have no idea how you would actually do it in practice)

Doug S., I agree on principle, but disagree on your particular example because it is not statistical in nature. Should we not be hugging the query "Is the argument sound?" If a random monkey typed up a third identical argument and put it in the envelope, it's just as true. The difference between this and the a medical trial is that we have an independent means to verify the truth. Argument screens off Methodology...

If evidence is collected in violation of the fourth amendment rights of the accused, it's inadmissable in court, yes, but that doesn'... (read more)

0Kenny
If there is evidence of the researcher's private thoughts, they aren't private. In the hypothetical situation, an outside observer wouldn't know that the methodologies are different. You're right to suspect that there probably would be evidence that the methodologies differed in a realistic scenario.
[+]John5-14-1
[-]Leo_G.8-1

Woops, looks like I may have shot myself in the foot. The same way argument screens off authority, the actual experiment that was run screens off the intentions of the researcher.

Efficacy of the drug -> Results of the experiment <- Bias of the researcher

Efficacy, Bias -> Results of the experiment -> Our analysis of the efficacy of the drug

Leo: "...the actual experiment that was run screens off the intentions of the researcher."

As long as the validity and reliability of the experiment itself aren't affected by the bias, then the findings are your territory. Analysis is the creation of the map, where all sorts of things can go awry.

Data may be confusing, or even misleading, but this is a fact about us, not the data. Data acquired from valid experiment does not lie, whatever your motives. It might just be telling you something you're not listening to.

"The most exciting phrase to... (read more)

I am sorry that I am too lazy to read this thoroughly, but to me the original problem seems a mere illusion and a strawman. A priori, the two experiments are different, but who cares? The experiment with its stopping condition yields a distribution of results only if you have some assumed a priori distribution over the patient population. If you change the stopping condition without changing this distribution, you change the experiment and you get a different distribution for the result. This has nothing to do with evidential impact. Frequentists don't, as far as I can tell, claim anything like that.

I am sorry that I am too lazy to read this thoroughly, but to me the original problem seems a mere illusion and a strawman. A priori, the two experiments are different, but who cares? The experiment with its stopping condition yields a distribution of results only if you have some assumed a priori distribution over the patient population. If you change the stopping condition without changing this distribution, you change the experiment and you get a different distribution for the result. This has nothing to do with evidential impact. Frequentists don't, as far as I can tell, claim anything like that.

Are P(r>70|effective) and P(r>70|~effective) really the same in those two experiments? Trivially, at least, in the second one P(r<60)=0, unlike in the first, so the distribution of r over successive runs must be different. The sequences of experimental outcomes happened to be the same in this case, but not in the counterfactual case where fewer than 60 of the first 100 patients were cured, and it seems that in fact that would affect the likelihood ratio. (I may run a simulation when I have the time.)

Oh, wait: assuming the second researcher stops as soon as (r >= 60) AND (N >= 100) (the latter expression to explain that they kept going until r=70), then the distribution above 60 will actually not be any different (all the probability mass that was in r100, well, only the second experimenter could possibly have generated that result.

Are you telling me the first person's argument carries the exact same weight as the second?

Yes. It's the arguments that matter.

Now, if we know that one person was trying to support a thesis and the other presenting the data and drawing a conclusion, we can weight them differently, if we only have access to one. The first case might leave out contrary data and alternative hypotheses in an attempt to make the thesis look better. We expect the second case to mention all relevant data and the obvious alternatives, if only briefly, so the absence of contra... (read more)

Eliezer_Yudkowsky: As you described the scenario at the beginning ... you're right. But realistically? You need to think about P(~2nd researcher tained the experiment|2nd researcher has enormous stake in the result going a certain way). :-P

It is not completely unreasonable to believe that the big problem in medical research is not a lack of data or a lack of efficient statistical procedures to translate the data into conclusions, but rather the domination of the process by clever arguers. The old-fashioned procedure seems to penalize clever arguers. Although it is of course regrettable that the penalization is an accidental side effect of a misunderstanding of math, the old-fashioned procedure might in fact work better than a procedure whose sole objective is to squeeze as much knowledge from the data as possible.

A good post on a profoundly beautiful subject, and a nice bit of jujutsu the way it works against the backdrop of the meta-commentary.

A minor quibble: Have you considered that use of "Law", like "The Way", while perhaps appropriately elevating, might work against your message by obscuring appreciation of increasingly general "principles"?

For some good mockery of orthodox statistical concepts I recommend the writings of Guernsey McPearson.

Actually never mind, the good parts are harder to find than I thought.

Elizer says:

"We aren't enchanted by Bayesian methods merely because they're beautiful. The beauty is a side effect. Bayesian theorems are elegant, coherent, optimal, and provably unique because they are laws."

This seems deeply mistaken. Why should we believe that bayesian formulations are any more inherently "lawlike" than frequentist formulations? Both derive their theorems from within strict formal systems which begin with unchanging first principles. The fundamental difference between Bayesians and Frequentists seems to stem fro... (read more)

1Дмитрий Зеленский
If Bayesian derivation is a frequentist derivation, it does not mean that any frequentist derivation is necessarily equivalent to Bayesian. Mr. Yudkowsky claims, more or less, that Bayesian derivation is equivalent to the ideal frequentist derivation.

Elizer says:

"We aren't enchanted by Bayesian methods merely because they're beautiful. The beauty is a side effect. Bayesian theorems are elegant, coherent, optimal, and provably unique because they are laws."

This seems deeply mistaken. Why should we believe that bayesian formulations are any more inherently "lawlike" than frequentist formulations? Both derive their theorems from within strict formal systems which begin with unchanging first principles. The fundamental difference between Bayesians and Frequentists seems to stem fro... (read more)

Eliezer,

I'm afraid that I too was seduced by Doug's analogy, and for some reason am a little too slow to follow your response. Any chance you could try again to explain why the analogy doesn't work?

I am by no means an expert in statistics, but I do appreciate Eliezer Yudkowsky's essay, and think I get his point that, given only experiment A and experiment B, as reported, there may be no reason to treat them differently IF WE DON'T KNOW of the difference in protocol (if those thoughts are truly private). But It does seem rather obvious that, if there were a number of independent experiments with protocol A and B, and we were attempting to do a meta-analysis to combine the results of all such experiments, there would be quite a number of experiments wh... (read more)

I second conchis's request. Shouldn't the second method cut against assumption of a randomized sample?

I'm also thinking of an analogy to the problem of only reporting studies that demonstrate the effectiveness of a drug, even if each of those studies on its own is fair. It seems to me as if stopping when and only when one gets the results one wants is similarly problematic, once again even if everything else about the experiment is strictly ok; outcomes that show 60%+ effectiveness are favored under that method, so P(real effectiveness!=60%|experimental ... (read more)

Conchis and Benquo: Eliezer's response to Doug was that the probability of a favorable argument is greater, given a clever arguer, than the prior probability of a favorable argument. But the probability of a 60% effectiveness given 100 trials, given an experimenter who intended to keep going until he had a 60% effectiveness, is no greater than the prior probability of a 60% effectiveness given 100 trials. This should be obvious, and does distinguish the case of the biased intentions from the case of the clever arguer.

To make that claim more obvious: suppose I am involved in the argument between the Greens and the Blues, and after seeing the blue sky, I intend to keep looking up at the sky until it looks green. This won't make it any more probable that when I look at the sky tomorrow, it will look green. This probability is determined by objective facts, not by my intentions, and likewise with the probability of getting a 60% effectiveness from 100 trials.

[-]tcpkac-20

I just saw an incredibly beautiful sunset. I also see the beauty in some of EY's stuff. Does that mean the sunset was Bayesian, or indeed subject to underlying lawfulness ? No, it only means my enhanced primate brain has a tendency to see beauty in certain things. Not that there is any more epistemic significance in a sunset than there is in a theorem.

I admit that I am still not quite sure what a "Bayesian" is as opposed to and "Old style" statistician (though I am very familiar with Bayes theorem, prior probabilities, likelihood ratios, etc).

That being said, the example at the beginning of the post is a great example of "after the fact" reasoning. If researcher number #2 had required 1,000 trials, then you could say that our interpretation of his results are the same as, say, "researcher #3" who set out to have 1,000 trials no matter how many cures were observed.... (read more)

Had to actually think about it a bit, and I think it comes down to this:

The thing that determines the strength of evidence in favor of some hypothesis vs another is "what's the likelihood we would have seen E if H were true vs what's the likelihood we would have seen E if H were false"

Now. experimenter B is not at all filtering based on H being true or false, but merely the properties of E.

So the fact of the experimenter presenting the evidence E to us can only (directly) potentially give us additional information on the properties of the total e... (read more)

There are some rather baroque kinds of prior information which would require a Bayesian to try to model the researcher's thought processes. They pretty much rely on the researcher having more information about the treatment effectiveness than is available to the Bayesian, and that the stopping rule depends on that extra information. This idea could probably be expressed more elegantly as a presence or absence of an edge in a Bayesian network, twiddling the d-separation of the stop-decision node with the treatment effectiveness node.

[-]Fly200

"So now we have a group of scientists who set out to test correlation A, but found correlation B in the data instead. Should they publish a paper about correlation B?"

Since you testing multiple hypotheses simultaneously, it is not comparable to Eliezer's example. Still, it is an interesting question...

Sure. The more papers you publish the better. If you are lucky the correlation may hold in other test populations and you've staked your claim on the discovery. Success is largely based on who gets credit.

Should a magazine publish papers reporting c... (read more)

Unknown, I still find it difficult to accept that there should be literally zero modification. It's important not just that n=100, but that n=100 random trials. Suppose both researchers reported 100% effectiveness with the same n, but researcher 2 threw out all the data points that suggested ineffectiveness? You still have an n=100 and a 100% effectiveness among that set, but any probability judgment that doesn't account for the selective method of picking the population is inadequate. I would suggest that either less or a different kind of information... (read more)

Suppose both researchers reported 100% effectiveness with the same n, but researcher 2 threw out all the data points that suggested ineffectiveness?

Yes, but that is not the case that was described to us.

The mindset of the researchers doesn't matter - only the procedure they follow does. And as unlikely as it may be, in the examples we're provided, the second researcher does not violate the proper procedure.

I have to say, the reason the example is convincing is because of its artificiality. I don't know many old-school frequentists (though I suppose I'm a frequentist myself, at least so far as I'm still really nervous about the whole priors business -- but not quite so hard as all that), but I doubt that, presented with a stark case like the one above, they'd say the results would come out differently. For one thing, how would the math change?

But the case would never come up -- that's the thing. It's empty counterfactual analysis. Nobody who is following ... (read more)

Uh, strike the "how would the math change?" question -- I just read the relevant portion of Jaynes's paper, which gives a plausible answer to that. Still, I deny that an actual practicing frequentist would follow his logic and treat n as the random variable.

(ALSO: another dose of unreality in the scenario: what experimenter who decided to play it like that would ever reveal the quirky methodology?)

Maybe in private notes?

And as far as thinking that N was the random variable in the second case, I had, I'd thought it through, and basically concluded that since no data at all was being hidden from us by experimenter B, and since A and B followed the same procedure, the probability that specific outcome would be published by B was the same as that of A

now, there is a partial caveat. One might say "but... What if B's rule was to only publish the moment he had at least 70%?"

So one might think there's more possible ways it could have come out like... (read more)

Paul Gowder,

You've read Jaynes -- now read MacKay.

"Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms" (available for download here).

The key portions are sections 37.2 - 37.3 (pp 462-465).

1[anonymous]
No-one's going to read this reply, as I'm 13 years too late, but -- oh dear me -- MacKay makes hard work of the medical example. A straightforward Frequentist solution follows.  There are 4 positive cases among the 30 subjects in class A and 10 subjects in class B.  We'll believe that treatment A is better if it's very unlikely that, were the treatments identical, there would be so relatively few positive cases among the A's.  There are 91390 ways of picking 4 from 40, with only 3810 ~= 4.17% having 0 or 1 in class A.  So, unless we were unlucky (4.17% chance) with the data, we can conclude that treatment A is better.

Cyan, excellent link!

Caledonian,

I agree that the two cases are not precisely the same. I also agree that they are not, as a matter of degree, very close. But it seems to me that stopping at a desired result is implicitly the same as "throwing out" other possible results, if the desired result is one of the several results possible in the range of all feasible "n"s. In other words, what I meant by my "more concrete" example is that researcher 2's experiment is properly a member of the set of all possible type-2 experiments (all of which will pro... (read more)

But it seems to me that stopping at a desired result is implicitly the same as "throwing out" other possible results

You did not speak about throwing out possible results. You spoke of throwing out data that went against the desired conclusion.

These are very, very different actions, with different implications.

Cyan, that source is slightly more convincing.

Although I'm a little concerned that it, too, is attacking another strawman. At the beginning of chapter 37, it seems that the author just doesn't understand what good researchers do. In the medical example given at the start of the chapter (458-462ish), many good researchers would use a one-sided hypothesis rather than a two-sided hypothesis (I would), which would better catch the weak relationship. One can also avoid false negatives by measuring the power of one's test. McKay also claims that "this a... (read more)

It's worth noting that hypothesis testing as it's normally taught is a messy, confused hybrid of two approaches (Fischer and Neyman/Pearson), each of which is individually somewhat more elegant (but still doesn't make philosophical sense):

http://ftp.isds.duke.edu/WorkingPapers/03-26.pdf

http://marketing.wharton.upenn.edu/ideas/pdf/Armstrong/StatisticalSignificance.pdf

Caledonian,

I guess "the same" was a bit of an unintentional exaggeration. I will try to be precise. What I meant was, same in an important way -- that is, likewise excluding only a kind of counterexample.

Paul Gowder,

I agree with you that MacKay's Chi-squared example fails to criticize frequentist best practice. That said, all of the improvements you suggest seem to me to highlight the problem -- you have lots of tools in the toolbox, but only training and subjective experience can tell you which ones are most appropriate. On the question of "which approach is more subjective?", the frequentist advantage is illusory. (On the question of "which approach has the best philosophical grounding?" I go with the Cox theorems.)

Cyan, I've been mulling this over for the last 23 hours or so -- and I think you've convinced me that the frequentist approach has worrisome elements of subjectivity too. Huh. Which doesn't mean I'm comfortable with the the whole priors business either. I'll think about this some more. Thanks.

As a full-blown Bayesian, I feel that the bayesian approach is almost perfect. It was a revelation when I first realized that instead of having this big frequentist toolbox of heuristics, one can simply assume that every involved entity is a random variable. Then everything is solved! But then pretty quickly I came to the catch, namely that to be able to do anything, the probability distributions must be parameterized. And then you start to wonder what the pdf's of the parameters should be, and off we go into infinite regress.

But the biggest catch is of co... (read more)

6moshez
You don't need to solve the integral for the posterior analytically, you can usually Monte-Carlo your way into an approximation. That technique is powerful enough on reasonably-sized computers that I find myself doubting that this is the only hurdle to superhuman AI.

"Two medical researchers use the same treatment independently [...] one had decided beforehand [...] he would stop after treating N=100 patients, [...]. The other [...] decided he would not stop until he had data indicating a rate of cures definitely greater than 60%, [...]. But in fact, both stopped with exactly the same data: n = 100 [patients], r = 70 [cures]. Should we then draw different conclusions from their experiments?"

[...]

If Nature is one way, the likelihood of the data coming out the way we have seen will be one thing. If

... (read more)

"If anyone should ever succeed in deriving a real contradiction from Bayesian probability theory [...] then the whole edifice goes up in smoke. Along with set theory, 'cause I'm pretty sure ZF provides a model for probability theory."

If you think of probability theory as a form of logic, as Jaynes advocates, then the laws and theorems of probability theory are the proof theory for this logic, and measure theory is the logic's model theory, with measure-theoretic probability spaces (which can be defined entirely with ZF, as you suggest) being the models.