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Open Thread, September 30 - October 6, 2013
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Silk Road drugs market shut down; alleged operator busted.

Bitcoin drops from $125 to $90 in heavy trading.

Edited to add: Well, that was quick. Doesn't look like the bottom fell out.

Edited again: Here's the criminal complaint against the alleged operator. The details at least make sense as a story: in the early days of Silk Road, the alleged operator had really lousy opsec, linking his name to the Silk Road project. Then later, he seems to have got scammed by a guy who first threatened to extort him, then pretended to be a hit-man who would kill the extortionist.

3Jayson_Virissimo
Can we trust that all of these sources will eventually be archived on gwern.net?
8gwern
Yes, assuming the files aren't too gigantic like 100M+. Right now I just want to collect everything relevant.
[-]tgb160

I need some advice. I recently moved to a city and I don't know how to stop myself from giving money to strangers! I consider this charity to be questionable and, at the very least, inefficient. But when someone gets my attention and asks me specifically for a certain amount of money and tells me about themselves, I won't refuse. I don't even feel annoyed that it happened, but I do want to have it not happen again. What can I do?

The obvious precommitment to make is to never carry cash. I am strongly considering this and could probably do so, but it is nice to be able to have at least enough for a bus trip, a quick lunch or for some emergency. I have tried to give myself a running tally of number of people refused and when that gets to, say, 20, I would donate something to a known legitimate charity. While doing so makes me feel better about passing beggars by, it doesn't help once someone gets me one-on-one. So I've never gotten to that tally without resetting it first by succumbing to someone. Is there some way to not look like an easy mark? Are there any good standard pieces of advice and resources for this?

However, I always find these exchanges to be really fascinating from the ... (read more)

The basic answer is not to talk to these people.

Do not answer questions about what time it is, do not enter any conversations at all. At most say "sorry" and walk on.

Just. Do. Not. Talk. To. Them.

assume that they're scamming. It will often be true and even when honest giving money to panhandlers is an inefficient use of charity. Remind yourself that you already have a budget for charity and that you're sending it to givewell or MIRI or whatever.

9A1987dM
And yet people here are still surprised that gatekeepers could lose at the AI box game.
9Viliam_Bur
Keep your head up and your back straight, look towards the horizon, walk with a certain pace. Avoid the places with high density of scammers, if you can. (For example in my city it would around the train station.) Did you notice immediately that the person is lying to you (pretending to care about time, but actually not caring), therefore you have no social obligation to interact with them? I keep an attitude that if someone is manipulating me like this, I owe them nothing socially... I give myself permission to just walk away without any explanation or interaction, or to lie to them (even in a very transparrent manner: "sorry, I don't have any money"; they did it first, so they have no right to complain). Saying "sorry, I am in a hurry" and walking away without looking at them should work in most cases (and is even socially acceptable if you care about that aspect). More meta, I have problem giving you good advice, because I have no idea why do you behave this way. I don't know what precisely happens in your head during the interaction, which is why I can't be specific about which parts of that you need to change (because it starts in the head). It is an interaction: they are playing their parts of the script, you are playing your part. The key is to stop playing your part (because obviously, they have no motivation to stop playing theirs). Is it difficult for you to realize that you are being scammed? Or do you suspect this, but you don't feel certain about your judgement? Or are you pretty sure about your judgement, but you don't know how to stop the interaction without... feeling bad about yourself? Seems to me the last one is more likely. If that is true, please explain the details. Do you believe you should feel bad about yourself for not giving money to strangers (because you imagine some person would consider you bad)? Would you also feel guilty about stopping a thief from taking your wallet? Where is the difference? Can you write the words that go in y
2tgb
It just, you know, feels like yes they could use this money more than I could. I know that there's a good chance they're lying, but they're lying to spice it up but probably do need this for one reason or another. It's not entirely rational choice, I admit, but it always seems like a rather minor favor that really won't hurt me much this time. It's just that it happens far too frequently for my own comfort that I consider it a problem. I don't even feel bad about having given them the money, even in retrospect. I just know that I can't give everyone money who asks for it and that by conceding I'm encouraging even more of this exploitation. (But neither do I think I get a significant 'warm fuzzies' feeling for giving as it seems to be cancelled by the "what am I doing?" in the back of my head.) I guess that EY's tale here about holding open doors and letting people know they left the car trunk open is why I keep doing this. If I modify myself to completely ignore these little things... what will I lose? Can I really just not ever give anyone the time? What about all those times when they really did just need to know the time, or wanted to charge their phone, or whatever? Those happen, probably more often than times when they're just tricks for scammers. That's why I was looking at solutions like not carrying cash - a way that I can not ignore it but still can't fall for it. For the record, this was the first time I've given out more than a dollar or two. My original post has probably made it seem like I do this more often and more egregiously than I do, partly because I was carried away by that particular exchange and partly because prior to moving this never happened so anything seems like a lot. Edit: In fact, now I can think of at least one situation in which I had to ask strangers for some quarters in order to be able to pay to park and catch my train. The only difference in this situation being that I obviously had money on me and just didn't expect their to

An idea: Next time try to estimate how much money such person makes. As a rough estimate, divide the money you gave them by the length of your interaction. (To get a more precise estimate, you would have to follow them and observe how much other people give them, but that could be pretty dangerous for you.)

Years ago I made a similar estimate for a beggar on a street (people dropped money to his cap, so it was easy to stand nearby, watch for a few minutes and calculate), and the conclusion was that his income was above average for my country.

By the way, these people destroy a lot of social capital by their actions. They make life more difficult for people who genuinely want to ask for the time, or how to get somewhere, or similar things. They condition people against having small talk with people they don't know. -- So if you value people being generally kind to strangers, remember that these scammers make their money by destroying that value.

7Shmi
it feels like it, but it's wrong. And you are actively making the situation worse. Better melt your cash and burn your bills. These people could use food, shelter and some skills to earn an honest living. There are charitable organizations providing these services, find the best ones and donate to them. Next time you give a dollar to a beggar, think of how your selfish feel-good act makes the world a worse place to live.
0tgb
Thanks, this is probably the tact I need to take.
7Lumifer
Don't visit the third world. Ever.
5Douglas_Knight
On the contrary, a visit to an actually poor place might give him the context to reevaluate the first world poor.
0tgb
Too late multiple times over, sorry. Though I haven't since I was old enough to really have any money on me.
2hyporational
People don't leave their car trunks open for deception unless they're kidnappers. If you can't tell if people are lying or not, please just ignore them. Otherwise you're encouraging the dishonest ones to harass other people too.
2kalium
I'll be willing to help out if I hear anything other than a request for money, or if I see an obvious problem I can help with (like a cyclist with a flat tire when I have a patch kit in my pocket). I just categorically don't allow "kindness to strangers" to translate to "giving money to strangers," and as soon as money comes up I say I'm broke (which is not true, but not that far from it either), figuratively close my ears, and walk away. I suppose it helps that most panhandlers in my area have signs. Most non-sign-carriers who approach me want directions or some such. Maybe I just look like a bad scam target though.
1A1987dM
Yes, that's what I usually do. (Sometimes I give them trivial amounts of money like €0.50 instead.) Yep... People trying to dishonestly manipulate me trigger a heckuva memetic immune response, akin to refusing an offer in the Ultimatum game.
9juliawise
I hate feeling I have to walk by a person pandhandling and not respond at all - it makes me feel like a bad person. I had been told not to make eye contact unless you're going to give money, but I've recently changed my strategy and started smiling before giving my standard, "no, sorry" to the request for cash. Recently I flashed a smile as I strode by a man on the sidewalk. He smiled back and said, "God bless you for that smile." It felt like we connected, which is what people are generally going for when they give money (unless it's just to avoid feeling guilty). Yvain's take on all this: http://squid314.livejournal.com/340483.html
0drethelin
This is usually what I do.
8DavidS
Let me suggest a world view which is much less negative than the other replies: I view panhandlers as vendors of warm fuzzies and therefore treat them as I would any other street vendor whose product I am most likely not interested in. In particular, I have no reason to be hostile to them, or to be disrespectful of their trade. If they engage me politely, I smile and say "No thanks." I think the second word there is helpful to my mindset and also makes their day a little better. If they become hostile or unpleasant, I feel no guilt about ignoring them; they have given me good reason to suspect their fuzzies are of low quality. If they have a particularly amusing approach, and I feel like treating myself, I give them money. (EG The woman who offered to bet me a dollar that she could "knock down this wall", gesturing at a nearby brick building. It was obviously a setup, but it was worth paying a dollar to learn the punchline, and she delivered it well.) I developed this mindset while living in Berkeley, CA near Telegraph and walking everywhere, which I suspect means that I was encountering panhandlers at a rate about as high as anyone in the first world. I also, of course, contribute significant portions of money to charities which can do a lot more good with it. If you are looking for a charity which specifically aids people in a situation similar to the ones you are refusing, you may want to consider the HOPE program http://www.thehopeprogram.org/ . In 2007, Givewell said about them "For donors looking to help extremely disadvantaged adults obtain relatively low-paying jobs, we recommend HOPE." http://www.givewell.org/united-states/charities/HOPE-Program . There is an argument (and Givewell makes it) that helping extremely disadvantaged adults in the first world obtain relatively low-paying jobs is so much harder than helping poor people in the third world that it should not be attempted. Without taking a side on that, if you feel guilty that you are not helping
8JoshuaFox
I was cured after I naively gave money to a street beggar, and was pursued for more money, to the point that I felt threatened. My usual procedure in the US is to actively pretend that beggars, and those who look like them, don't exist. Phil Collins wouldn't like it, but after that occasion and one or two like it, I feel scared. I truly admire a certain friend who can chit-chat on a friendly basis with a street person. As I got older and more confident, I developed other practices: 1. Someone asked for money for food, so I handed her a bag of fancy chocolate almonds I had in my hand. She looked like that wasn't what she was expecting. 2. In a friendly way, I told a collector for some ineffective charity that, in honor of his request, I would give 100 NIS more than usual to my regular charity, but not his. Chutzpah. 3. When a collector for some ineffective charity comes up to me, I solicit him, in a friendly way, to give money to my favorite charity before he has a chance to ask. Once I got 1 NIS this way, so I felt obliged to give him a (different) shekel. I then had fun ceremonially taking that 1 NIS coin to the treasurer, along with my usual donation. 4. Once I asked a phone collector for some ineffective charity, in a friendly way, to decide on my behalf: Should I give 100 NIS to a certain truly worthy cause, or deny it to that worthy cause and give it to her charity. She got quite tangled up trying to answer. In short, I became a little obnoxious. The fact that I regularly give a good amount to charity is probably what gave me the psychological leeway to do this. (And I wouldn't do any of that to a more-or-less worthy charity, or if a friend asked.)
4A1987dM
A few months ago I was with a co-worker in the centre of a foreign capital, waiting for some other people, and some guy approached us offering to sell us some marijuana. I told him “I quitted smoking five years ago” and we kept talking about that for about half a minute before he left. My co-worker was very annoyed that I didn't just ignore the guy. That is freakin' awesome.
7moridinamael
Remind yourself that the panhandler is defecting (in the Prisoner's Dilemma sense) by putting you in that situation. Remind yourself that they are actively and premeditatedly manipulating you through a set of known exploitable psychological levers. There is a strain of Dark Arts to this advice, because you are choosing to preemptively deflect your empathy with a feeling of defensiveness. It is nonetheless true that the panhandler is being rude, definitionally, and that you are being tricked.
6hyporational
I'm terribly sorry for my strong reaction but this whole post reeks of abuser attracting vulnerability so much that it's making me angry. It's not difficult to imagine beggars can sense you a mile away. What the hell? People are robbing your time in the street and lying to your face to get your money too, and you are considering to inconvenience your own life to accommodate them? Just learn to tell a white lie like the rest of humanity, it doesn't even matter if you do it badly in a case like this. All you need is an attitude change, not a bag of tricks. I'm going to appeal to your altruism. You're making lying for money profitable. When you give away your hard earned money it doesn't hurt just you or the potential charities. I'm not sure what makes me so angry about this... it just seems that submissiveness seems to be a relatively common failure mode for otherwise smart people. ETA: in Europe, begging is highly organized so you would likely be financing organized crime. ETA2: Yes, stop giving money to these people. Of course they recognize you, it's their job.
6Moss_Piglet
It seems like your problem might be too in having much empathy for strangers, which (at least when dealing with panhandlers) shouldn't theoretically be too hard to deal with. If you cultivate a mindset of viewing beggars as parasites and degenerates you ought to be able to resist any impulses of sympathy which come up, especially since you already know that you're not helping them and many are in fact con-artists. It shouldn't really affect your other charity giving much either, since my understanding is that EA mostly focuses on giving medical aid to foreigners rather than dealing with poverty in areas with high costs of living like American cities. On the other hand, it's very possible empathy isn't your real problem here. The feeling of gratitude (even faux-gratitude) and generosity from handing a few bucks to a hobo is a big rush; I certainly get more utility out of my spare change that way than I ever would buying junk food with it. If that's your issue than it might be smart to do what you're doing now and poison the good feeling by re-framing it as something shameful.
5ChristianKl
Instead of thinking about stopping giving the money think about stopping giving them the time to tell you a long story.
5kalium
Don't turn your head in their direction. Don't change your pace. Don't make eye contact. It gets easier. Does your city have transit passes or RFID stored-value cards? It may be possible for you to be prepared to take the bus without carrying cash. As for lunch, is it uncommon for restaurants in your area to accept credit cards?
4Username
"Sorry man, I don't have cash." If you feel bad about lying (given that it's not a good idea to give money to panhandlers, you shouldn't), take a note of how much money you would have given them and donate double that to your nearest food bank/shelter. There, now you actually helped them.
19eB1
Others have recommended keeping your eyes away from them, I'll add the possibility of wearing headphones and sunglasses to give you plausible deniability which will probably make you feel better psychologically even though it should have no impact. Another idea is you could keep a few quarters in your pocket and just give them a quarter from your pocket as quickly as you can, then at least you are limiting the damage to a trivial amount. I have never tried this idea.
[-][anonymous]160

Interesting statements I ran into with regards to kabuki theater aspects of the so called United States federal government shutdown of 2013. This resulted in among other things closing down websites.

A website shouldn't just go down when the people managing it stop working, it's not like they're pedaling away inside the servers. Block the federal highways with army tanks, sorry the government is closed.

There is a nontrivial set of the voting public who legitimately believe money equals tech working via magical alchemy.

I was interested to know this kind of thing has a name: Washington Monument Syndrome.

The name derives from the National Park Service's alleged habit of saying that any cuts would lead to an immediate closure of the wildly popular Washington Monument.

[-][anonymous]190

As a sysadmin, if I were to be furloughed indefinitely I would probably spin down any nontrivial servers. A server that goes wrong and can't be accessed is a really, really, really, really terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad thing. And things go wrong on a regular basis in normal times; when the government is shut down and a million things that get done everyday suddenly stop being done, something somewhere is going to break. Some 12-year-old legacy cron job sitting in an obscure corner of an obscure server written by a long-departed contractor is going to notice that the foobar queue is empty , which turns out to be an undefined behavior because the foobar queue has always had stuff going through it before, so it executes an else branch it's never had occasion to execute, which sends raw debugging information to a production server because the contractor was bad at things, and also included passwords in their debugging because they were really bad at things...

[-]Sly150

This is actually a terrible example of Washington Monument Syndrome.

" Hi, Server admin here... We cost money as does our infrastructure, I imagine a site that large costs a very good deal, we aren't talking five bucks on bluehost here.

I am private sector, but if I were to be furloughed for an indeterminate amount of time you really have two options. Leave things on autopilot until the servers inevitably break or the site crashes at which point parts or all of it will be left broken without notice or explanation. Or put up a splash page and spin down 99% of my infrastructure (That splash page can run on a five dollar bluehost account) and then leave. I won't be able to come in while furloughed to put it up after it crashes.

If you really think web apps keep themselves running 24/7 without intervention we really have been doing a great job with that illusion and I guess the sleepless nights have been worth it to be successfully taken for-granted."

-1Athrelon
This is true; however keeping a website running is still very, very cheap compared to almost anything else the government does, including functions that are continuing as usual during the shutdown. If web apps are too high maintenance, that does not explain the shutdown of government Twitters (example: https://twitter.com/NOAA, which went to the extra effort of posting that "we won't be tweeting 'cause shutdown.") I note with amusement however that the Health and Human Services Twitter is alive and well and tweeting about the ACA.
1Sly
"This is true; however keeping a website running is still very, very cheap compared to almost anything else the government does, including functions that are continuing as usual during the shutdown." This is literally irrelevant when the non-essential services have to be shut down. If your techs get furloughed, shutting down the site is appropriate. The twitter accounts are "shut down" in the sense that the employee who would have done the tweeting is now furloughed and can't. Putting out a tweet explaining the upcoming lapse makes a whole lot of sense to me.
6[anonymous]
The Shutdown Wasn’t Pointless. It Revealed Information William Spaniel says on twitter he is not sure about how he feels about our models of war also explaining U.S. Congress bargaining. Besides war being politics by other means, I say we obviously should expect the models to work to a limited extent. Democracy is a highly ritualized form of civil war and not any kind of war but the kind practiced in the 19th century when democracy began its march. Instead of drafting a mob and then ordering them to shoot the opposing mob, you orderly assemble your respective mobs and then count them via voting. Since Samuel Colt made men equal in the 19th century you assume the slightly larger mob wins. Some nations even factor in territory held to decide outcomes. After elections both mobs go safely home and about their business, while in theory the government implements a real outcome of the simulated war. I'm half expecting that sooner or later someone will realize you can with current technology win civil wars with drones agains mobs and Democracy will be discarded in favor of a more stable equilibrium. On the other hand early 20th century thinkers, futurists and fiction writers expected people to realize air power changed the calculus of war and for this change to impact politics quite profoundly. Arguably maybe we would even be better off had they been right. All power to the pilots! Yet they weren't. Evidence against.
6solipsist
I suspect it would be illegal to run those servers. The Anti-Deficiency Act forbids the government from "involving the government in any obligation to pay money before funds have been appropriated". The Army can't purchase new tanks, NASA can't order a new space shuttle, and I bet most agencies can't rack up more obligations with their ISPs and electric companies. This act, by the way, is the reason nonessential workers are forbidden from volunteering for work.
6ChristianKl
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ seems still to run.
2[anonymous]
BLAST and PubMed are running automatically but there is no updating of either of them with new materials.
2fubarobfusco
Theater, certainly; in the sense of staging an elaborate show for the public (see also "security theater") — but why kabuki specifically?
9TheOtherDave
As arundelo notes, it's a trope. I think it's meant to evoke the extremely stylized, not at all realistic nature of the art form... that is, it's not that the audience is being tricked into thinking something is going on, it's that the audience is willingly going along with the story being told.
7arundelo
It's a common usage in some circles. Jon Lackman wrote a Slate article criticizing it.
0fubarobfusco
Okay, so it's like "Chinese fire drill". Got it.
-4Multiheaded
Actually, y'all wrong. It was simply a fun idea for celebrating 4chan's 10th birthday.
-5[anonymous]
[-][anonymous]150

I've heard several stories in the last few months of former theists becoming atheists after reading The God Delusion or similar Four-Horsemen tract. This conflicts with my prior model of those books being mostly paper applause lights that couldn't possibly change anyone's mind.

Insofar as atheism seems like super-low-hanging fruit on the tree of increased sanity, having an accurate model for what gets people to take a bite might be useful.

Has anyone done any research on what makes former believers drop religion? More generally, any common triggers that lead people to try to get more sane?

Edit: Found a book: Deconversion: Qualitative and Quantitative Results from Cross-Cultural Research in Germany and the United States of America. It's recent (2011) and seems to be the best research on the subject available right now. Does anyone have access to a copy?

I can tell you what triggered me becoming an atheist.

I was reading a lot of Isaac Asimov books, including the non-fiction ones. I gained respect for him. After learning he was an atheist, it started being a possibility I considered. From there, I was able to figure out which possibility was right on my own.

This seems to be a trend. I never seriously worried about animals until joining felicifia.org where a lot of people do. I never seriously considered that wild animals' lives aren't worth living until I found out some of the people on there do. I think it's a lot harder to seriously consider an idea if nobody you respect holds it. Just knowing that a good portion of the population is atheist isn't enough. Once you know one person, it doesn't matter how many people hold the opposite opinion. You are now capable of considering it.

I didn't think unfriendly AI was a serious risk until I came here, but that might have been more about the arguments. I figured that an AI could just be programmed to do what you tell it to and nothing more (and from there can be given Asimov-style laws). It wasn't until I learned more about the nature of intelligence that I realized that that is not likely going to be easy. Intelligence is inherently goal-based, and it will maximize whatever utility function you give it.

Theism isn't about god. It has also social and therefore strong emotional consequences. If I stop being a theist, does it mean I will lose my friends, my family will become more cold to me, and I will lose an access to world's most wide social networks?

In such case the new required information isn't a disproved miracle or an essay on Occam's razor. That has zero impact on the social consequences. It's more important to get an evidence that there is a lot of atheists, they can be happy, and some of them are considered very cool even outside of atheist circles. (And after having this evidence, somehow, the essays about Occam's razor become more convincing.)

Or let's look at it from the opposite side: Even the most stupid demostrations of faith send the message that it is socially accepted to be religious; that after joining a religion you will never be alone. Religion is so widespread not because the priests are extra cool or extra intelligent. It's because they are extra visible and extra audacious: they have no problem declaring that everyone who disagrees with them is stupid and evil and will go to hell (or some more polite version of this, which still gets the message across) -- a... (read more)

3DanielLC
That looks like more of a reply to the parent comment than to mine.
1Viliam_Bur
Under the usual convention that "reply to" means "disagree with", it certainly does. :D Although the "some of them are considered very cool even outside of atheist circles" part was inspired by you mentioning Asimov. (Only the remaining 99% aren't.)
1[anonymous]
My original question was basically asking for evidence for your hypothesis (religion is mostly a social motivated-reasoning thing, and the best way to fix it is to demonstrate (over)confidence and social acceptance) or alternative hypothesis. It sounds plausible, but I don't think anyone has actually tried to check with any degree of rigor.
6Bakkot
There's a PDF (legal, even!) here, linked next to "download". See also their website/theologie/forschung/religionsforschung/forschung/streib/dekonversion/), which is probably more digestible.
2palladias
Well, this is anecdata, but when I was an atheist, I found God Delusion frustrating and not worth handing to my Christian friends, since it attacked lowest common denominator Christianity a lot, and my friends tended to be nerdy Thomists. Plus, I find a lot of Four Horseman stuff frustrating because they rarely construct something of their own to defend (though I understand the sense of urgency to knock people out of their current worldview -- if you find it abhorrent enough -- and let them land where they may).
6[anonymous]
You say "when I was an atheist". Running into ex-atheists is a rare thing, especially here - may I ask what changed your mind?
2Vaniver
I recently came across this, from the theist perspective (i.e. they tracked down people who had left and interviewed them, with the hope to prevent that in the future), and I remember it hinged mostly on social factors. (The enthusiastic youth pastor quits, and is replaced by someone that doesn't know the Bible as well, etc.) I'm sure there are some people who deconverted because of reading those books- but it's likely that they also would have deconverted if they moved from Town A to Town B, for example, so that doesn't seem like a terribly effective way to reach everyone.
0Salutator
I think another thing to remember here is sampling bias. The actual conversion/deconversion probably mostly is the end point of a lengthy intellectual process. People far along that process probably aren't very representative of people not going through it and it would be much more interesting what gets the process started. To add some more anecdata, my reaction to that style of argumentation was almost diametrically opposed. I suspect this is fairly common on both sides of the divide, but not being convinced by some specific argument just isn't such a catchy story, so you would hear it less.

I'm in the process of translating some of the Sequences in French. I have a quick question.

From The Simple Truth:

Mark sighs sadly. “Never mind… it’s obvious you don’t know. Maybe all pebbles are magical to start with, even before they enter the bucket. We could call that position panpebblism.”

This is clearly a joke at the expense of some existing philosophical position called pan[something] but I can't find the full name, which may be necessary to make the joke understandable in French. Can anyone help?

6Shmi
I initially read it as an allusion to Panpsychism: or maybe to a generic pan-x-ism. But, in retrospect, the position that "all pebbles are magical to start with" should be called "panmagism" or something. Panpebblism means that there is a pebble in everything (or everyone). So I am no longer sure what Eliezer meant.
3witzvo
I think he's just using the prefix "pan-" to mean all, though perhaps pantheism is relevant.
0Roxolan
I'll just keep the prefix/suffix as is and hope for the best then ("pancailloutisme").

In the past few hours, my total karma score has dropped by fifteen points. It looks like someone is going back through my old comments and downvoting them. A quick sample suggests that they've hit everything I've posted since some time in August, regardless of topic.

Is this happening to anyone else?

Anyone with appropriate access care to investigate?

To whoever's doing this — Here's the signal that your action sends to me: "Someone, about whom all you know is that they have an LW account that they use to abuse the voting system, doesn't like you." This is probably not what you mean to convey, but it's what comes across.

0A1987dM
That kind of stuff happens quite often.
0Moss_Piglet
Maybe it's just me not knowing much about website design, but this seems like a problem which could be mitigated with automatic controls on the karma system. Like, for example, you have a limit of +/- n net Karma you can award to any given poster in an arbitrary time limit t. Or even that if your rate of downvoting any given poster cracks some ceiling it sends up an automatic mod flag that there might be an attack going on. Ideally, of course, we could just abide by the honor system, but from a pragmatic perspective it might make more sense to set up stronger safeguards as an additional measure.
1A1987dM
That can be also implemented more softly by still allowing anyone to vote anyone as much as they want, but requiring a captcha for each vote after a given limit.

I got an offer of an in-person interview from a tech company on the left coast. They want to know my current salary and expected salary. Position is as a software engineer. Any ideas on the reasonable range? I checked Glassdoor and the numbers for the company in question seem to be 100k and a bit up. I suppose, actually, that this tells me what I need to know, but honestly it feels awfully audacious to ask for twice what I'm making at the moment. On the other hand I don't want to anchor a discussion that may seriously affect my life for the next few years at too small a number. So, I'm seeking validation more than information. Always audacity?

Always ask as much as you can. Otherwise you are just donating the money to your boss. If you hate having too much money, consider donating to MIRI or CFAR or GiveWell instead. Or just send it to me. (Possible exception is if you work for a charity, in which case asking less than you could is a kind of donation.)

The five minutes of negotiating you salary are likely to have more impact on your future income than the following years of hard work. Imagine yourself a few years later, trying to get a 10% increase and hearing a lot of bullshit about how the economical situation is difficult (hint: it is always difficult), so you should all just work harder and maybe later, but no promises.

it feels awfully audacious to ask for twice what I'm making at the moment

I know. Been there, twice. (Felt like an idiot after realising that I worked for a quarter of my market price at the first company. Okay, that's exaggerated, because my market price increased with the work experience. But it was probably half of the market price.)

The first time, I was completely inexperienced about negotiating. It went like: "So tell me how much you want." "Uhm, you tell me how much you give peop... (read more)

3DanielLC
Asking for more than all the money is trivial. Don't even get me started on how much someone who is good at math can ask for. This is obviously not a good strategy. There is an optimum amount to ask for. How do you find it?
3Moss_Piglet
By looking at the distribution of that industry / company's wages for someone of your qualifications and asking for something on the high end. They will then either accept or try to barter you down. Either way, you will most likely end up with more than what you would have gotten otherwise. In other words, exactly what Viliam_Bur said to begin with.
3RolfAndreassen
Well yes, but how much can I ask? :) At any rate I went for 125k, which seems to be in the upper third or so of what Glassdoor reports. Thanks for the encouragement.
5Viliam_Bur
When the first two companies will say that they would hire you if you asked a bit less, and you refuse, and the third company gives you as much as you asked, then you know you are working for a market salary. Until then you are probably too cheap. Sorry, I am not from USA, so I am unable to give specific numbers. I guess you should ask for 140k now, and be willing to get down to 125k (prepare some excuse, such as "normally I would insist on 140k, but since this is the work I always wanted to have, and [insert all the benefits your interviewer mentioned], I'd say we have a deal").

Don't deliberately screw yourself over. Don't accept less than the average for your position and either point blank refuse to give them negotiating leverage by telling them your current salary or lie.

For better, longer advice see [Salary Negotiation for Software Engineers](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation)

I'm afraid I couldn't quite bring myself to follow all the advice in your link, but at any rate I increased my number to 125k. So, it helped a bit. :)

Look up what Ramit Sethi has to say about salary negotiation. He really outlines the how things look from the other side and how asking for your 100k is not nearly as audacious as it seems.

8cata
You may feel better about being audacious if you do an explicit cost-of-living calculation given the rent and price differential. If you see that maintaining the same standard of living is going to cost you 80k, then 100k stops seeming like a huge number. It's also true that there is only epsilon chance of screwing yourself. Nobody is going to reject you because the expected salary number you suggested was too high; it makes no sense. You could suggest 150k and the only bad thing that will happen is you might only get offered 120k.
0RolfAndreassen
No doubt you are correct; anyway, it's only a job interview. Other fish in the sea, if necessary.
7Ben_LandauTaylor
Always audacity! If you ask for a number that's too high, they are extremely unlikely to withdraw the offer. Anecdotally, a very good friend of mine was just able to negotiate a 50% increase in his starting salary in a similar-sounding situation.
3RolfAndreassen
Ok. I took a deep breath, closed my eyes, and said "125000". Hope it wasn't too low.
0JoshuaFox
Rolf, you work in an industry where people are becoming millionaires and billionaires overnight. Maybe you won't manage that, but no need to be embarrassed for raking it in. Note that even though you don't need to reveal your salary in negotiations, current salary often anchors negotiations in your next one as well as your current one, illogical though that may be. So the deal you make now has long-term implications. Also, in yet another of those biases they talk about here, a high salary may, within limits, make your bosses think you are a better worker who deserves a higher status.

I would like to eventually create a homeschooling repository. Probably with research that might help people in deciding whether or not to homeschool their children, as well as resources and ideas for teaching rationality (and everything else) to children.

I have noticed that there have been several question in the past open threads about homeschooling and unschooling. One of the first things I plan to do is read through all past lesswrong discussions on the topic. I haven't really started researching yet, but I wanted to start by asking if anyone had anything that they think would belong in such a repository.

I would also be interested in hearing any personal opinions on the matter.

[-]Shmi100

Homeschooling is like growing your own food (or doing any other activity where you don't take advantage of division of labor): if you enjoy it, have time for it and are good at it, it's worth trying. Otherwise it's useless frustration.

I couldn't agree more about division of labor in general, but with the current state of the public school system, I do not trust them to do a good job of teaching anything.

I do not have the time or patience for it, and probably am not good at it, but fortunately my partner would be the one teaching.

6Emile
Good compared to what? Compared to other developed countries, compared to what they could do if they spent their resources more wisely, compared to what you could do homeschooling your kid? A lot of the criticism of US schools is based on the first two criteria, but the third one should be the one that matters for you - even if they do a crappy job compared to Europe or Canada, they might still do a better job than you on your own, especially if you take into account things like learning to get along with peers. (That being said, I don't know enough about either your situation or even US schools (I live in France), I'm just wary of the jump from "schools are bad" to "I can do better than schools")
0Manfred
Student achievement in US schools compared to e.g. Finnish schools is to a large extent a reflection of the much greater inequality in the US. If you're a middle class parent and you're not living in a high-poverty neighborhood, your kid will be totally fine going to public school.
4Scott Garrabrant
What does "totally fine" mean? I wouldn't describe 99% of the population as "totally fine" in terms of education and rational thought.
2Manfred
I don't think a system that can promise you 3 standard deviations of improvement has been invented. Look at twin studies.
2Scott Garrabrant
I agree that 3 standard deviations of improvement of a random person is a lot to ask for. However, I can easily see that someone with built in potential to be 3 sd above average could be brought down to near average by the wrong system. My expectation of my children's potential is very dependent on how heritable intelligence is, and I admittedly do not know much about that.
4Emile
As far as I know, most estimates point to around 50% genetic, but parenting style doesn't explain much of the remaining 50% See this: http://infoproc.blogspot.fr/2009/11/mystery-of-nonshared-environment.html
5Barry_Cotter
Given the Bloom two sigma phenomenom it would not surprise me if unschooling + 1 hour tuition per day beat regular school. And if you read Lesswrong there's a reasonable p() that an hour of a grad student's time isn't that expensive.
8Viliam_Bur
I googled the "Bloom two sigma phenomenom" and... correct me if I am wrong, but I parsed it as: "If we keep teaching students each lesson until they understand, and only then move to the next lesson (as opposed to, I guess, moving ahead at predetermined time intervals), they will be at top 2 percent of all students". What exactly is the lesson here? The weaker form seems to be -- if students don't understand their lessons, it really makes a difference at tests. (I guess this is not a big surprise.) The stronger form seems to be -- in standard education, more than 90% of students don't understand the lessons. Which suggests that of the money given to education, the huge majority is wasted. Okay, not wasted completely; "worse than those who really understand" does not necessarily mean "understands nothing". But still... I wonder how much additional money would be needed to give decent education to everyone, and how much would the society benefit from that. Based on my experience as a former teacher, the biggest problem is that many students just don't cooperate and do everything they can to disrupt the lesson. (In homeschool and private tutoring, you don't have these classmates!) And in many schools teachers are completely helpless about that, because the rules don't allow them to make anything that could really help. Any attempt to make education more efficient would have to deal with the disruptive students; perhaps to remove them from the main stream. And the remaining ones should learn until they understand. Perhaps with some option for the smarter ones to move ahead faster.
2TsviBT
Are you kidding? Did you go to school? Teaching material to a class of 10 (let alone 20 or 50) K-12 kids, selected only by location and socio-economic class, is a ridiculously overconstrained problem. To give one of the main problems: for each concept you teach, you have to choose how long to explain it and give examples. If you move on, then any kid who didn't really get it will become very lost for the rest of the year (I'm thinking of technical subjects, where you have long dependent chains of concepts). If you keep dropping kids, then everyone gets lost. If you wait until everyone gets it, then you go absurdly slow. My little brother has been "learning" basic arithmetic in his (small, private) school for six years.
0Shmi
Not sure what exactly in my comment you are objecting to so vehemently. The issues you describe are exactly the same as with any mass production, including food.
4TsviBT
If we are talking about babysitting, then of course I agree - much more efficient to have one person babysit 15 kids. If we are talking about learning, then I am vehemently objecting to "a normal education is just/almost as good as homeschooling". The point of the example I gave (mastery learning vs. speed in the classroom) was that you can't mass produce education in the naive way. Taking advantage of division of labor in this context would mean hiring tutors.

Mindkilling for utilitarians: Discussion of whether it would have made sense to shut down the government to try to prevent the war in Iraq

More generally, every form of utilitarianism I've seen assumes that you should value people equally, regardless of how close they are to you in your social network. How much damage are you obligated to do to your own society for people who are relatively distant from it?

How can I acquire melatonin without a prescription in the UK? The sites selling it all look very shady to me.

[-]gwern150

It's melatonin; melatonin is so cheap that you actually wouldn't save much, if any, money by sending your customers fakes. And the effect is clear enough that they'd quickly call you on fakes.


And they may look shady simply because they're not competently run. To give an example, I've been running an ad from a modafinil seller, and as part of the process, I've gotten some data from them - and they're easily costing themselves half their sales due to basic glaring UI issues in their checkout process. It's not that they're scammers: I know they're selling real modafinil from India and are trying to improve. They just suck at it.

2Douglas_Knight
Have you tried asking for a prescription?
0bramflakes
.. no. I kinda assumed I wouldn't be able to get one since I don't have any obvious sleeping issues. "I did my independent research and figured it would improve my sleep beyond the baseline" wouldn't work, I think.
6Douglas_Knight
What's the harm in trying? (Lying to your doctor could be dangerous. So don't do that.) Just say "I think my sleep could be better." It's true and baseline is vague enough that doctors don't mind improving people beyond it. Doctors do get nervous when people they don't know come in asking for a particular drug, even something like melatonin or a hair-loss drug. This is much more likely to work if you have a regular doctor. Going back to the original question, can you order it off of amazon.com (not co.uk)?
0kalium
What is the danger in telling your doctor you have insomnia when you don't?
0Douglas_Knight
This particular example is probably safe, but I think it's better to give more generalizable advice.
0bramflakes
I assumed that Amazon would be smart enough to restrict orders to countries where the products are illegal or restricted, but I'm unsure whether independent sellers associated with amazon have the same restriction. In any case I bought some from another UK-based site. It was only like 20 quid for half a year's worth of pills so I don't consider it much of a loss if they don't arrive or are just sugar pills (which gwern points out is unlikely).

If I make a target, but instead of making it a circle, I make it an immeasurable set, and you throw a dart at it, what's the probability of hitting the target?

[-]Quinn130

In other words, "what is the measure of an unmeasurable set?". The question is wrong.

9Oscar_Cunningham
I suppose the question is: What should you do if you're offered a bet on whether the dart will hit the target or not? There's no way to avoid the question other than arguing somehow that you'll never encounter an immeasurable set.

I'll never encounter an immeasurable set.

9tut
Immeasurable objects are physically impossible. The actual target will be measurable, even if the way you came up with it was to try to follow the "instructions" that describe an immeasurable set.
0D_Alex
Hmm. What is the exact length of your, say, pen? Is it a rational number or a real number... I mean the EXACT lengh...? Note if the answer to the last question is "it is a real number", then it is possible to construct the bet as proposed by the OP. Before you quote "Planck's Length" in your reply, there is currently no directly proven physical significance of the Planck length (at least according to Wikipedia).
7Quinn
For the same reasons you outline above, I'm okay with fighting this hypothetical target. If I must dignify the hypothesis with a strategy: my "buy" and "sell" prices for such a bet correspond to the inner and outer measures of the target, respectively.

If you construct a set in real life, then you have to have some way of judging whether the dart is "in" or "out". I reckon that any method you can think of will in fact give a measurable set.

Alternatively, there are several ways of making all sets measurable. One is to reject the Axiom of Choice. The AoC is what's used to construct immeasurable sets. It's consistent in ZF without AoC that all sets are Lebesgue measurable.

If you like the Axiom of Choice, then another alternative is to only demand that your probability measure be finitely additive. Then you can give a "measure" (such finitely additive measures are actually called "charges") such that all sets are measurable. What's more you can make your probability charge agree with Lebesgue measure on the Lebesgue measurable sets. (I think you need AoC for this though.)

In L.J. Savage's "The Foundations of Statistics" the axioms of probability are justified from decision theory. He only ever manages to prove that probability should be finitely additive; so maybe it doesn't have to be countably additive. One bonus of finite additivity for Bayesians is that lots of improper priors become proper. For example, there's a uniform probability charge on the naturals.

6Oscar_Cunningham
I've been thinking about this a bit more. My current thinking is basically what Coscott said: 1. We only care about probabilities if we can be forced to make a bet. 2. In order for it to be possible to decide who won the bet, we need that (almost always) a measurement to some finite accuracy will suffice to determine whether the dart is in or out of the set. 3. Thus the set has a boundary of measure zero. 4. Thus the set is measurable. What we have shown is that in any bet we're actually faced with, the sets involved will be measurable. (The steps from 2 to 3 and 3 to 4 are left as exercises. (I think you need Lebesgue measurable sets rather than just Borel measurable ones)) Note that the converse fails: I believe you can't make a bet on whether or not the dart fell on a rational number, even though the rationals are measurable.
2Pfft
Here's a variant which is slightly different, and perhaps stronger since it also allows some operations with "infinite accuracy". In order to decide who won the bet, we need a referee. A natural choice is to say that the referee is a Blum-Shub-Smale machine, i.e. a program that gets a single real number x∈[0,1] as input, and whose operations are: loading real number constants; (exact) addition, substraction, multiplication and division; and branching on whether a≤b (exactly). Say you win if the machine accepts x in a finite number of steps. Now, I think it's always the case that the set of numbers which are accepted after n steps is a finite union of (closed or open) intervals. So then the set of numbers that get accepted after any finite number of steps is a countable union of finite unions of intervals, hence Borel.
7Scott Garrabrant
Immeasurable sets are not something in the real world that you can throw a dart at. I can rephrase your problem to be: "If I have an immeasurable set X in the unit interval, [0,1), and I generate a uniform random variable from that interval, what is the probability that that variable is in X?" The problem is that a "uniform random variable" on a continuous interval is a more complicated concept than you think. Let me explain, by first giving an example where X is measurable, lets say X=[0,pi-3). We analyze random continuous variables by reducing to random discrete variables. We can think of a "uniform random variable" as a sequence of digits in a decimal expansion which are determined by rolling a 10 sided die. So for example, we can roll the die, and get 1,4,6,2,9,..., which would correspond to .14629..., which is not in the set X. Notice that while in principle we might have to roll the die arbitrarily many times, we actually only had to roll the die 3 times in this case, because once we got 1,4,6, we knew the number was too big to be in the set X. We can use this fact that we almost always have to roll the die only a finite number of times to get a definition of the "probability of being in X." In this case, we know that the probability is between .141 and .142, by considering 3 die rolls, and if we consider more die rolls, we get more accuracy that converges to a single number, pi-3. Now, let's look at what goes wrong if X is not measurable. The problem here is that the set is so messy that even if we we know about the first finitely many digits of a random number, we wont be able to tell if the number is in X. This stops us from doing the procedure like above and defining what we mean. Is this clear?
5Oscar_Cunningham
EDIT: I retract the following. The problem with it is that Coscott is arguing that "something in the real world that you can throw a dart at" implies "measurable" and he does this by arguing that all sets which are "something in the real world that you can throw a dart at" have a certain property which implies measurability. My "counterexamples" are measurable sets which fail to have this property, but this is the opposite of what I would need to disprove him. I'd need to find a set with this property that isn't measurable. In fact, I don't think there is such a set; I think Coscott is right. The sets with this property (that you can tell whether your number is in or out after only finitely many dice rolls) are the open sets, not the measurable sets. For example, the set [0,pi-3] is measurable but not open. If the die comes up (1,4,1,5,9,...) then you'll never know if your number is in or out until you have all the digits. For an even worse example take the rational numbers: they're measurable (measure zero) but any finite decimal expansion could be leading to a rational or an irrational.
3arundelo
That doesn't seem right to me. Take as my target the open set (0, pi-3). If I keep rolling zeros I'll never be able to stop. (Edit: I know that the probability of rolling all zeros approaches 0 as the number of die rolls approaches infinity, but I assume that a demon can take over the die and start feeding me all zeros, or the digits of pi-3 or whatever. As I think about this more I'm thinking maybe what you said works if there is no demon. Edit 2: Or not. If there's no demon and my first digit is 0 then I can stop, but that's only because 0 is expressible as an integer divided by a power of ten. If there's no demon and I roll the first few digits of pi-3, I know that I'll eventually go over or under pi-3, but I don't know which, and it doesn't matter whether pi-3 itself is in my target set.) Every die roll tells me that the random number I'm generating lies in the closed interval [x, x+1/10^n], where x is the decimal expansion I've generated so far and n is how many digits I've generated. If at some point I start rolling all 0s or all 9s I'll be rolling forever if the number I'm generating is a limit point of the target set, even if it's not in the target set.
3Oscar_Cunningham
I should have been more accurate and said "If the random number that you'll eventually get does in fact lie in the set, then you'll find out about this fact after a finite number of rolls." This really does define open sets, since for any point in an open set there's an open ball of radius epsilon about it which is in the set, and then the interval [x, x+1/10^n] has to be in that ball once 1/10^n < epsilon/2. EDIT: (and the converse also holds, I think, but it requires some painfully careful thinking because of the non-uniqueness of decimal expansions) I think a more exact representation of what Coscott actually said is the following property: "We almost always only have to roll the die finitely many times to determine whether the point is in or out." This still doesn't specify measurable sets (because of the counterexample given by the rationals). I think the type of set that this defines is "Sets with boundary of measure zero" where the boundary is the closure minus the interior. Note that the rationals in [0,1) have boundary everywhere (i.e. boundary of measure 1).
0arundelo
Ah, so if my target set is (0, pi-3) and the demon feeds me the digits of pi-3, I will be rolling forever, but if the demon feeds me the digits of pi-3-epsilon (or any other number in (0, pi-3)) I will be able to stop after a finite amount of rolls. That sounds right to me, although I don't understand measure very well. I was informally thinking of this property as "continuousness".
0Scott Garrabrant
Yeah, but I can't explain explain that without analysis not appropriate for a less wrong post. I remember that the probability class I took in undergrad dodged the measure theory questions by defining probabilities on open sets, which actually works for most reasonable questions. I think such a simplification is appropriate, but I should have had a disclaimer.
0MrMind
What Quinn said. Throwing darts at immeasurable set was a technique used to 'prove' the continuum hypothesis.
1Douglas_Knight
Could you give a reference? Are you assuming choice?
6MrMind
Sorry, it was used to 'disprove' the continuum hypothesis. It's the Freiling axiom.
1Douglas_Knight
Thanks! I think it's quite reasonable to reject choice and take as an axiom that all sets are measurable, so I'm interested in the consequences of it. I'd always been told that the continuum hypothesis is orthogonal to everything people care about, but that's only after assuming choice.
2MrMind
There's also the Axiom of Determinacy that rejects Choice and, when paired with the existence of a very strong measurable cardinal, gives a very broad class of measurable sets.
0Douglas_Knight
Could you give an example of a set whose measurability I might care about, other than subsets of R? something for random processes? Could you give a reference for the combination?
0MrMind
Well, I guess this pretty much depends on the area you're working on. I'm interested in the foundation of mathematics, for which measurable sets are of big importance (for example, they are the smallest critical point of embedding of transitive models, or they are the smallest large cardinal property that cannot be shown to exists inside the smallest inner model). Outside of that area, I guess the interest is all about R and descriptive set theory. Edit: It's not true that measurable cardinals are the smallest large cardinals that do not exists in L. Technically, the consistency strength is called 0#, and between that and measurables there are Ramsey cardinals. Well, the definitive source is Kanamori's book "The higher infinite", but it's advanced. Some interesting things can be scooped up from Wikipedia's entry about the axiom of determinacy.
-2Thomas
CH is orthogonal to ZF. CH is orthogonal to ZFC. If ZFC is inconsistent, then ZF is also inconsistent. AC is orthogonal to CH.
2JoshuaZ
That doesn't actually answer Douglas's statement that the continuum hypothesis is orthogonal to everything people care about if one assumes choice. In fact Doug's statement is more or less correct. See in particular discussion here. In particular, ZF + CH implies choice for sets of real numbers, which is what we care about for most practical purposes.
2Douglas_Knight
A comment at your link baldly asserts that ZF+CH implies choice for sets of real numbers, but the link seems otherwise irrelevant. Do you have a better citation? In particular, what do you mean by CH without choice? In fact, the comment asserts that ZF+CH implies R is well-orderable, which I don't think is true under weaker notions of CH.
0JoshuaZ
CH in that context then is just that there are no sets of cardinality between that of R and N. You can't phrase it in terms of alephs (since without choice alephs aren't necessarily well-defined). As for a citation, I think Caicedo's argument here can be adopted to prove the statement in question.
2Douglas_Knight
I said that I doubt your claim, so blog posts proving different things aren't very convincing. Maybe I'm confused by the difference between choice and well-ordering, but imprecise sources aren't going to clear that up. In fact, it was Caicedo's post that lead me to doubt Buie. Everything Caicedo says is local. In particular, he says that CH(S) and CH(2^S) imply that S is well-orderable. Buie makes a stronger specific claim that CH implies R is well-orderable, which sounds like a stronger specific claim, unlikely to be proved by local methods. I guess it is not exactly stronger, though, because the hypothesis is a little different (CH=CH(N), not CH(R)). ---------------------------------------- Alephs are defined without choice. They are bijective equivalence classes of ordinals. In any event, ℵ_1 is the union of countable ordinals. Sometimes they are called cardinals. It is widely reported that the (weak) CH is the that every uncountable subset of the reals is bijective with the reals, while strong CH is that the reals are bijective with ℵ_1. I think you and Buie are simply confusing the two statements. ---------------------------------------- Also, sometimes people use "weak continuum hypothesis" to mean 2^ℵ_0 < 2^ℵ_1; I think it is strictly weaker than the statement that there are no sets between ℵ_0 and 2^ℵ_0.
0JoshuaZ
Hmm, that does make it seem like I may be confused here. Possible repaired statement would then use GCH in some form rather than just CH and that should go through then since GCH will imply that for all infinite S, CH(S) and CH(2^S), which will allow one to use Caicedo's argument. Does that at least go through? I think you are likely correct here.
2Douglas_Knight
Yes, Caicedo mentions that GCH implies AC. This is a theorem of Siepinski, who proved it locally. Specker strengthened the local statement to CH(S)+CH(2^S) => S is well-orderable. It is open whether CH(S) => S is well-orderable.
0JoshuaZ
Ok. That makes sense. I think we're on the same page then now, and you are correct that Buie and I were confuse about the precise version of the statements in question.

Topic: Investing

There seems to be a consensus among people who know what they're talking about that the fees you pay on actively managed funds are a waste of money. But I saw some friends arguing about investing on Facebook, with one guy claiming that index funds are not actually the best way to go for diversified investing that does not waste any money on fees. Does anyone know if there is anything too this? More specifically, are Vanguard's funds really as cheap as advertised, or is there some catch to them?

6ephion
The idea is that you can't, on average and long term, beat the market. So paying extra money for a fund that claims to be able to do that is an unnecessary gamble. Accumulating the expertise to evaluate a fund's ability to perform better than the market would give you the ability to just invest at that level anyway, so you might as well save your time and money and stick it in the cheapest market funds you can manage. Yes, some strategies beat the market, sometimes (they also sometimes fail catastrophically). But you can do pretty damn well comparably in the long term by having a very low-cost, low-effort strategy that frees up a lot of time and effort for other pursuits. You can look up expense ratios on Google, Morningstar, etc. Vanguard does pretty well. They're pretty well represented here.
2Douglas_Knight
This seems like a really weird question. If your friend is advocating something else, how about you tell us what it is? If your friend is knocking Vanguard, but not specifying what's better, why should I care? Your last sentence suggests that Vanguard is lying about it's fees. That would be a reasonable thing to say in isolation, but it's not true.
0Viliam_Bur
Most likely the alternative is to pay his friend to actively manage your money using his secret knowledge. This does not automatically mean the friend is wrong. But I also wouldn't expect any kind of proof or guarantee. We are moving from the evidence area to "just trust me, I'm smart" area.
2solipsist
Asset allocation matters too. Vanguard target retirement funds follow the conventional wisdom (more stocks when you're young, more bonds when you're older) and are pretty cheap. Plowing all new investments into a single target-date fund is good advice for most people*. I implemented a scheme to lower my expenses from 0.17% to 0.09%, but it was not worth the time, hassle, and tax complications. *People who should do something more complicated include retirees, who should strongly consider buying an annuity, and people who are saving to donate to charity.
2ChristianKl
The issue with an index fund that based on something like the SAP 500 is that the SAP 500 changes over time. If a company loses their SAP 500 all the index funds that are based on the SAP 500 dump their stocks on the market. On average that's not going to be a good trade. The same goes for the trade of buying the companies that just made it into the SAP 500. On average you are going to lose some money to hedge funds or investment banks who take the other side on those trades. In general you can expect that if you invest money into the stockmarket big powerful banks have some way to screw you. But they won't take all your money and index funds are still a good choice if you don't want to invest too much time thinking about investing.
4wgd
This sounds like a sufficiently obvious failure mode that I'd be extremely surprised to learn that modern index funds operate this way, unless there's some worse downside that they would encounter if their stock allocation procedure was changed to not have that discontinuity.
1Lumifer
They do because their promise is to match the index, not produce better returns. Moreover, S&P500 is cap-weighted so even besides membership changes it is rebalanced (the weights of different stocks in the portfolio change) on a regular basis. That also leads to rather predictable trades by the indexers.
0ChristianKl
Being an index fund is fundamentally about changing your portfolio when the index changes. There no real way around it if you want to be an index fund.
1solipsist
If you could consistently make money by shorting stocks that are about to fall off an index, the advantage would arbitraged to oblivion.
1ChristianKl
The question is whether you know that the stocks are about to fall off the index before other market participants. If your high frequency trading algorithm is the first to know that a stock is about to fall off an index, than you make money with it. Using the effect to make money isn't easy because it requires having information before other market participants. That doesn't change anything about whether the index funds on average lose money on trades to update their portfolio to index changes.
0Shmi
There is no catch, you don't pay anything other than their advertised fees. Andrew Tobias has been using them as an example of a great way to invest in the market for years. (His writings on investing are great, ignore anything he says about politics on his blog.)
-4V_V
IIUC, since most transactions in the stock market are zero-sum (at least in terms of money), the fact that index funds make money despite using very simple and predictable strategies implies that on average, everybody else manages to do worse.
3Lumifer
Nope, that's not how it works. Just because the transaction is zero-sum doesn't mean the value is zero-sum. Consider (abstract) agriculture. You buy seeds, that's a "zero-sum" transaction, plant them, wait for them to grow, pick the harvest and sell it in another "zero-sum" transaction. Both your transactions with the market are zero-sum and yet... :-) Specifically, stock market is not zero-sum game.Therefore the fact that (some) index funds (sometimes) make money does not imply that the everybody else does worse.
0V_V
Yes, but you can't plant stock options in the ground, and in fact you can't really do anything with them other than selling them or keeping them and cash the dividends (assuming that you don't buy enough shares of a company to gain control of it). Since different people can assign different utility to cash and can discount future utility differently, it is possible that a transaction is positive sum: e.g. consider an old person with a short remaining life expectancy selling all their stocks to a young person. But at the level of large investment funds and banks, these effects should mostly cancel out, therefore the stock market is approximately zero-sum (up to events that alter the amount of available stocks, such as defaults, IPOs and recapitalizations)
1Lumifer
Stock options are very different from stock shares. I assume you're talking about shares. Stock shares represent part ownership of a company. The fact that you're likely to be a minority owner and have no control over the company does not change the fact that you are still legally entitled to a share of the company's value. If the company's value rises, the value of your share rises as well. If you're talking about personal subjective utility, every voluntary transaction is positive-sum. But that's irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion since here we are talking dollars and not utilons. You still don't understand. Public companies (generally) create value. This value accrues to the owners of the companies who are the holders of stock shares. In the aggregate, stock holders own all the public companies. If the public companies produced value, say, this year, the value of the companies themselves increased. This means that the worth of the stock in the stock market has increased -- even if no transactions have taken place. That is why stock market is not a zero-sum game.
0V_V
Yes, sorry about the imprecision. I didn't claim that owning stock shares produces no value. I claimed that most trades involving stocks (those which neither increase nor decrease the amount of stocks) are zero-sum w.r.t. monetary value. Consider Alice and Bob who have the same utility function w.r.t. money and the same discounting strategy. Alice sells a share to Bob at price X. Alice is betting that the total discounted utility from the dividends gained by owning the share indefinitely is less than the immediate utility of owning X, while Bob is betting that it is greater than that. Clearly they can't be both right. The gain of one is the loss of the other.
0Shmi
Sounds like a fully general counter-argument against investing.
0V_V
No, you can invest in index funds and make money or invest in securities not traded on the stock market.
0Lumifer
Generally it depends and there are certainly exceptions, but this position is a good prior to be modified by evidence. Absent evidence it stands :-) Investing is complicated. There is no simple, bulletproof, one-size-fits-all recipe. To talk about "the best way" you need to start by specifying your goals and constraints (including things like risk tolerance) -- that's surprisingly hard.

To find previous Open Threads, click on the "open_thread" link in the list of tags below the article. It will show you this page:

http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/tag/open_thread/

For some reasons that I don't understand, the Special threads wiki page has a link to this:

http://lesswrong.com/tag/open_thread/

...but that page doesn't work well.

4Vaniver
Douglas_Knight just fixed it. (It's a wiki; in the future, just fix it!)
0Viliam_Bur
I was also curious about why exactly the latter link does not work. By reading the URLs, I would expect the former to be "Open Threads withing the Discussion subreddit" and the latter "Open Threads, anywhere". If this understanding is correct, they should produce the same results. Which means either my model is wrong, or there is a bug in LW software.
3Douglas_Knight
No, the main subreddit is weird and a lot of things (eg, tags) that don't specify a subreddit are in main. The All subreddit ought to do both main and discussion, but its tags only cover main. Also, there are a lot of bugs in main and all.

Am I mistaken, or do the Article Navigation buttons only ever take to posts in Main, even if I start out from a post in Discussion? Is this deliberate? Why?

4Douglas_Knight
You correctly identify a bug. Here is another bug, which is less consistent. Posts in discussion have two URLs, one marked discussion, one not. For this open thread, here is the discussion link. Its tag links in the lower right corner of the post send you to discussion posts (but the tag links in the article navigation don't). I got that discussion link from a page of new discussion articles. But if I instead go to Coscott's submitted page, I get this link, which looks like it's in main, with tag links also in main.

Another PT:LoS question. In Chapter 8 ("Sufficiency, Ancillarity and all that"), there's a section Fisher information. I'm very interested in understanding it, because the concept has come up in improtant places in my statistics classes, without any conceptual discussion of it - it's in the Cramer-Rao bound and the Jeffreys prior, but it looks so arbitrary to me.

Jaynes's explanation of it as a difference in the information different parameter values give you about large samples is really interesting, but there's one step of the math that I just c... (read more)

2witzvo
There's no first-order term because you are expanding around a maximum of the log posterior density. Similarly, the second-order term is negative (well, negative definite) precisely because the posterior density falls off away from the mode. What's happening in rough terms is that each additional piece of data has, in expectation, the effect of making the log posterior curve down more sharply (around the true value of the parameter) by the amount of one copy of the Fisher information matrix (this is all assuming the model is true, etc.). You might also be interested in the concept of "observed information," which represents the negative of the Hessian of the (actual not expected) log-likelihood around the mode.
0alex_zag_al
ah, thank you! It makes me so happy to finally see why that first term disappears. But now I don't see why you subtract the second-order terms. I mean, I do see that since you're at a maximum, the value of the function has to decrease as you move away from it. But, in the single-parameter case, Jaynes's formula becomes }=\log{p(x%7C\theta_0)}%20-%20\frac{\partial%5E2%20\log{p(x%7C\theta)}}{\partial%20\theta%5E2}(\delta\theta)%5E2) But that second derivative there is negative. And since we're subtracting it, the function is growing as we move away from the minimum!
1witzvo
Yes, that formula doesn't make sense (you forgot the 1/2, by the way). I believe 8.52/8.53 should not have a minus there and 8.54 should have a minus that it's missing. Also 8.52 should have expected values or big-O probability notation. This is a frequentist calculation so I'd suggest a more standard reference like Ferguson

There is too much unwarranted emphasis on ketosis when it comes to Keto diets, rather than hunger satiation. That might sound like a weird claim since the diet is named after ketosis, but when it comes to the efficacy of the Keto diet for weight loss with no regard to potential health or cognitive effects, ketosis has little to do with weight loss. Most attempts to explain the Keto diet almost always starts with an explanation on what ketosis is with an emphasis on attaining ketosis rather than hunger satiation and caloric deficit. Here is intro excerpt... (read more)

0Lumifer
That is true. However for many people "health benefits" beyond and above losing weight are a major advantage of keto diets. Losing weight isn't be-all end-all of the way you eat.
0niceguyanon
Yea that is why I maintain a keto-esque diet, because I believe in the long term effects of reduced consumption of processed carbs and high glycemic index foods. An analysis of the front page of r/keto only results in one post about positive health/cognitive effects, almost every post has to do with "look at how much weight I lost", which is a shame because you're right when you say that Losing weight isn't the be-all end-all of the way your eat.

Yet another newbie question. What's the rational way to behave in a prediction market where you suspect that other participants might be more informed than you?

Here's a toy model to explain my question. Let's say Alice has flipped a fair coin and will reveal the outcome tomorrow. You participate in a prediction market over the outcome of the coin. The only participant besides you is Bob. Also you know that Alice has flipped another fair coin to decide whether to tell Bob the outcome of the first coin in advance. What trades should you offer to Bob, and wha... (read more)

9Lumifer
Stay out of the market. Alternatively, if you have a strong prior, you can treat the bets of other better-informed participants as evidence and do Bayesian updating. But it will have to be a pretty strong prior to still bet against them. Of course, if the market has both better-informed and worse-informed participants and you know who they are, you can just bet together with the better-informed participants.
0[anonymous]
Have you seen my reply to Coscott? You can't naively treat the actions of less informed people as evidence, because they might be rational and try to mislead you. (See "bluffing" and "sandbagging" in poker.) The game-theoretic view makes everything simpler, in this case almost too simple.
5Scott Garrabrant
You will not take a bet with Bob. If he does not know the result of the coin, he will not take anything worse than even odds. You should clearly not offer him even odds. If you offer him anything else, he will accept if and only if he knows you will lose.
4cousin_it
Hang on, I just realized there's a much simpler way to analyze the situations I described, which also works for more complicated variants like "Bob gets a 50% chance to learn the outcome, but you get a 10% chance to modify it afterward". Since money isn't created out of nothing, any such situation is a zero-sum game. Both players can easily guarantee themselves a payoff of 0 by refusing all offers. Therefore the value of the game is 0. Nash equilibrium, subgame-perfect equilibrium, no matter. Rational players don't play. That leads to the second question: which assumptions should we relax to get a nontrivial model of a prediction market, and how do we analyze it?