Related to: Disguised Queries, Words as Hidden Inferences, Dissolving the Question, Eight Short Studies on Excuses

Today's therapeutic ethos, which celebrates curing and disparages judging, expresses the liberal disposition to assume that crime and other problematic behaviors reflect social or biological causation. While this absolves the individual of responsibility, it also strips the individual of personhood, and moral dignity

-- George Will, townhall.com

Sandy is a morbidly obese woman looking for advice.

Her husband has no sympathy for her, and tells her she obviously needs to stop eating like a pig, and would it kill her to go to the gym once in a while?

Her doctor tells her that obesity is primarily genetic, and recommends the diet pill orlistat and a consultation with a surgeon about gastric bypass.

Her sister tells her that obesity is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice, and that fat-ism, equivalent to racism, is society's way of keeping her down.

When she tells each of her friends about the opinions of the others, things really start to heat up.

Her husband accuses her doctor and sister of absolving her of personal responsibility with feel-good platitudes that in the end will only prevent her from getting the willpower she needs to start a real diet.

Her doctor accuses her husband of ignorance of the real causes of obesity and of the most effective treatments, and accuses her sister of legitimizing a dangerous health risk that could end with Sandy in hospital or even dead.

Her sister accuses her husband of being a jerk, and her doctor of trying to medicalize her behavior in order to turn it into a "condition" that will keep her on pills for life and make lots of money for Big Pharma.

Sandy is fictional, but similar conversations happen every day, not only about obesity but about a host of other marginal conditions that some consider character flaws, others diseases, and still others normal variation in the human condition. Attention deficit disorder, internet addiction, social anxiety disorder (as one skeptic said, didn't we used to call this "shyness"?), alcoholism, chronic fatigue, oppositional defiant disorder ("didn't we used to call this being a teenager?"), compulsive gambling, homosexuality, Aspergers' syndrome, antisocial personality, even depression have all been placed in two or more of these categories by different people.

Sandy's sister may have a point, but this post will concentrate on the debate between her husband and her doctor, with the understanding that the same techniques will apply to evaluating her sister's opinion. The disagreement between Sandy's husband and doctor centers around the idea of "disease". If obesity, depression, alcoholism, and the like are diseases, most people default to the doctor's point of view; if they are not diseases, they tend to agree with the husband.

The debate over such marginal conditions is in many ways a debate over whether or not they are "real" diseases. The usual surface level arguments trotted out in favor of or against the proposition are generally inconclusive, but this post will apply a host of techniques previously discussed on Less Wrong to illuminate the issue.

What is Disease?

In Disguised Queries , Eliezer demonstrates how a word refers to a cluster of objects related upon multiple axes. For example, in a company that sorts red smooth translucent cubes full of vanadium from blue furry opaque eggs full of palladium, you might invent the word "rube" to designate the red cubes, and another "blegg", to designate the blue eggs. Both words are useful because they "carve reality at the joints" - they refer to two completely separate classes of things which it's practically useful to keep in separate categories. Calling something a "blegg" is a quick and easy way to describe its color, shape, opacity, texture, and chemical composition. It may be that the odd blegg might be purple rather than blue, but in general the characteristics of a blegg remain sufficiently correlated that "blegg" is a useful word. If they weren't so correlated - if blue objects were equally likely to be palladium-containing-cubes as vanadium-containing-eggs, then the word "blegg" would be a waste of breath; the characteristics of the object would remain just as mysterious to your partner after you said "blegg" as they were before.

"Disease", like "blegg", suggests that certain characteristics always come together. A rough sketch of some of the characteristics we expect in a disease might include:

1. Something caused by the sorts of thing you study in biology: proteins, bacteria, ions, viruses, genes.

2. Something involuntary and completely immune to the operations of free will

3. Something rare; the vast majority of people don't have it

4. Something unpleasant; when you have it, you want to get rid of it

5. Something discrete; a graph would show two widely separate populations, one with the disease and one without, and not a normal distribution.

6. Something commonly treated with science-y interventions like chemicals and radiation.

Cancer satisfies every one of these criteria, and so we have no qualms whatsoever about classifying it as a disease. It's a type specimen, the sparrow as opposed to the ostrich. The same is true of heart attack, the flu, diabetes, and many more.

Some conditions satisfy a few of the criteria, but not others. Dwarfism seems to fail (5), and it might get its status as a disease only after studies show that the supposed dwarf falls way out of normal human height variation. Despite the best efforts of transhumanists, it's hard to convince people that aging is a disease, partly because it fails (3). Calling homosexuality a disease is a poor choice for many reasons, but one of them is certainly (4): it's not necessarily unpleasant.

The marginal conditions mentioned above are also in this category. Obesity arguably sort-of-satisfies criteria (1), (4), and (6), but it would be pretty hard to make a case for (2), (3), and (5).

So, is obesity really a disease? Well, is Pluto really a planet? Once we state that obesity satisfies some of the criteria but not others, it is meaningless to talk about an additional fact of whether it "really deserves to be a disease" or not.

If it weren't for those pesky hidden inferences...

Hidden Inferences From Disease Concept

The state of the disease node, meaningless in itself, is used to predict several other nodes with non-empirical content. In English: we make value decisions based on whether we call something a "disease" or not.

If something is a real disease, the patient deserves our sympathy and support; for example, cancer sufferers must universally be described as "brave". If it is not a real disease, people are more likely to get our condemnation; for example Sandy's husband who calls her a "pig" for her inability to control her eating habits. The difference between "shyness" and "social anxiety disorder" is that people with the first get called "weird" and told to man up, and people with the second get special privileges and the sympathy of those around them.

And if something is a real disease, it is socially acceptable (maybe even mandated) to seek medical treatment for it. If it's not a disease, medical treatment gets derided as a "quick fix" or an "abdication of personal responsibility". I have talked to several doctors who are uncomfortable suggesting gastric bypass surgery, even in people for whom it is medically indicated, because they believe it is morally wrong to turn to medicine to solve a character issue.

While a condition's status as a "real disease" ought to be meaningless as a "hanging node" after the status of all other nodes have been determined, it has acquired political and philosophical implications because of its role in determining whether patients receive sympathy and whether they are permitted to seek medical treatment.

If we can determine whether a person should get sympathy, and whether they should be allowed to seek medical treatment, independently of the central node "disease" or of the criteria that feed into it, we will have successfully unasked the question "are these marginal conditions real diseases" and cleared up the confusion.

Sympathy or Condemnation?

Our attitudes toward people with marginal conditions mainly reflect a deontologist libertarian (libertarian as in "free will", not as in "against government") model of blame. In this concept, people make decisions using their free will, a spiritual entity operating free from biology or circumstance. People who make good decisions are intrinsically good people and deserve good treatment; people who make bad decisions are intrinsically bad people and deserve bad treatment. But people who make bad decisions for reasons that are outside of their free will may not be intrinsically bad people, and may therefore be absolved from deserving bad treatment. For example, if a normally peaceful person has a brain tumor that affects areas involved in fear and aggression, they go on a crazy killing spree, and then they have their brain tumor removed and become a peaceful person again, many people would be willing to accept that the killing spree does not reflect negatively on them or open them up to deserving bad treatment, since it had biological and not spiritual causes.

Under this model, deciding whether a condition is biological or spiritual becomes very important, and the rationale for worrying over whether something "is a real disease" or not is plain to see. Without figuring out this extremely difficult question, we are at risk of either blaming people for things they don't deserve, or else letting them off the hook when they commit a sin, both of which, to libertarian deontologists, would be terrible things. But determining whether marginal conditions like depression have a spiritual or biological cause is difficult, and no one knows how to do it reliably.

Determinist consequentialists can do better. We believe it's biology all the way down. Separating spiritual from biological illnesses is impossible and unnecessary. Every condition, from brain tumors to poor taste in music, is "biological" insofar as it is encoded in things like cells and proteins and follows laws based on their structure.

But determinists don't just ignore the very important differences between brain tumors and poor taste in music. Some biological phenomena, like poor taste in music, are encoded in such a way that they are extremely vulnerable to what we can call social influences: praise, condemnation, introspection, and the like. Other biological phenomena, like brain tumors, are completely immune to such influences. This allows us to develop a more useful model of blame.

The consequentialist model of blame is very different from the deontological model. Because all actions are biologically determined, none are more or less metaphysically blameworthy than others, and none can mark anyone with the metaphysical status of "bad person" and make them "deserve" bad treatment. Consequentialists don't on a primary level want anyone to be treated badly, full stop; thus is it written: "Saddam Hussein doesn't deserve so much as a stubbed toe." But if consequentialists don't believe in punishment for its own sake, they do believe in punishment for the sake of, well, consequences. Hurting bank robbers may not be a good in and of itself, but it will prevent banks from being robbed in the future. And, one might infer, although alcoholics may not deserve condemnation, societal condemnation of alcoholics makes alcoholism a less attractive option.

So here, at last, is a rule for which diseases we offer sympathy, and which we offer condemnation: if giving condemnation instead of sympathy decreases the incidence of the disease enough to be worth the hurt feelings, condemn; otherwise, sympathize. Though the rule is based on philosophy that the majority of the human race would disavow, it leads to intuitively correct consequences. Yelling at a cancer patient, shouting "How dare you allow your cells to divide in an uncontrolled manner like this; is that the way your mother raised you??!" will probably make the patient feel pretty awful, but it's not going to cure the cancer. Telling a lazy person "Get up and do some work, you worthless bum," very well might cure the laziness. The cancer is a biological condition immune to social influences; the laziness is a biological condition susceptible to social influences, so we try to socially influence the laziness and not the cancer.

The question "Do the obese deserve our sympathy or our condemnation," then, is asking whether condemnation is such a useful treatment for obesity that its utility outweights the disutility of hurting obese people's feelings. This question may have different answers depending on the particular obese person involved, the particular person doing the condemning, and the availability of other methods for treating the obesity, which brings us to...

The Ethics of Treating Marginal Conditions

If a condition is susceptible to social intervention, but an effective biological therapy for it also exists, is it okay for people to use the biological therapy instead of figuring out a social solution? My gut answer is "Of course, why wouldn't it be?", but apparently lots of people find this controversial for some reason.

In a libertarian deontological system, throwing biological solutions at spiritual problems might be disrespectful or dehumanizing, or a band-aid that doesn't affect the deeper problem. To someone who believes it's biology all the way down, this is much less of a concern.

Others complain that the existence of an easy medical solution prevents people from learning personal responsibility. But here we see the status-quo bias at work, and so can apply a preference reversal test. If people really believe learning personal responsibility is more important than being not addicted to heroin, we would expect these people to support deliberately addicting schoolchildren to heroin so they can develop personal responsibility by coming off of it. Anyone who disagrees with this somewhat shocking proposal must believe, on some level, that having people who are not addicted to heroin is more important than having people develop whatever measure of personal responsibility comes from kicking their heroin habit the old-fashioned way.

But the most convincing explanation I have read for why so many people are opposed to medical solutions for social conditions is a signaling explanation by Robin Hans...wait! no!...by Katja Grace. On her blog, she says:

...the situation reminds me of a pattern in similar cases I have noticed before. It goes like this. Some people make personal sacrifices, supposedly toward solving problems that don’t threaten them personally. They sort recycling, buy free range eggs, buy fair trade, campaign for wealth redistribution etc. Their actions are seen as virtuous. They see those who don’t join them as uncaring and immoral. A more efficient solution to the problem is suggested. It does not require personal sacrifice. People who have not previously sacrificed support it. Those who have previously sacrificed object on grounds that it is an excuse for people to get out of making the sacrifice. The supposed instrumental action, as the visible sign of caring, has become virtuous in its own right. Solving the problem effectively is an attack on the moral people.

A case in which some people eat less enjoyable foods and exercise hard to avoid becoming obese, and then campaign against a pill that makes avoiding obesity easy demonstrates some of the same principles.

There are several very reasonable objections to treating any condition with drugs, whether it be a classical disease like cancer or a marginal condition like alcoholism. The drugs can have side effects. They can be expensive. They can build dependence. They may later be found to be placebos whose efficacy was overhyped by dishonest pharmaceutical advertising.. They may raise ethical issues with children, the mentally incapacitated, and other people who cannot decide for themselves whether or not to take them. But these issues do not magically become more dangerous in conditions typically regarded as "character flaws" rather than "diseases", and the same good-enough solutions that work for cancer or heart disease will work for alcoholism and other such conditions (but see here).

I see no reason why people who want effective treatment for a condition should be denied it or stigmatized for seeking it, whether it is traditionally considered "medical" or not.

Summary

People commonly debate whether social and mental conditions are real diseases. This masquerades as a medical question, but its implications are mainly social and ethical. We use the concept of disease to decide who gets sympathy, who gets blame, and who gets treatment.

Instead of continuing the fruitless "disease" argument, we should address these questions directly. Taking a determinist consequentialist position allows us to do so more effectively. We should blame and stigmatize people for conditions where blame and stigma are the most useful methods for curing or preventing the condition, and we should allow patients to seek treatment whenever it is available and effective.

Diseased thinking: dissolving questions about disease
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Yvain:

The consequentialist model of blame is very different from the deontological model. Because all actions are biologically determined, none are more or less metaphysically blameworthy than others, and none can mark anyone with the metaphysical status of "bad person" and make them "deserve" bad treatment. [...] But if consequentialists don't believe in punishment for its own sake, they do believe in punishment for the sake of, well, consequences. Hurting bank robbers may not be a good in and of itself, but it will prevent banks from being robbed in the future.

Or as Oliver Wendell Holmes put it more poignantly:

If I were having a philosophical talk with a man I was going to have hanged or electrocuted, I should say, "I don't doubt that your act was inevitable for you, but to make it more avoidable by others we propose to sacrifice you to the common good. You may regard yourself as a soldier dying for your country if you like. But the law must keep its promises."

(I am not a consequentialist, much less a big fan of Holmes, but he sure had a way with words.)

1torekp
The law must keep its promises? That doesn't sound particularly Utilitarian, or even particularly consequentialist. Deontologists could endorse the focus on the distinction between behaviors that are responsive to praise/blame and those, like the development of cancer, that are not. Or to put it another way, on the distinction between behaviors that are responsive to talk and those that are not. Here, "talk" includes self-talk, which includes much reasoning.

The law must keep its promises? That doesn't sound particularly Utilitarian, or even particularly consequentialist.

In this case, the law must "keep its promises" because of what would follow if it turned out that the law didn't actually matter. That's a very consequentialist notion.

4torekp
I'm just trying to point out that we can agree with a central point of Yvain's post without endorsing consequentialism. For example, Anthony Ellis offers a deontological deterrence-based justification of punishment. The same goes for Holmes's quip, even if in his case it was motivated by consequentialist reasoning. Especially if we take "your act was inevitable for you" to be an (overblown) restatement of the simple fact of causal determination of action.
2Kaj_Sotala
Oh, right. Yeah, sure - I agree with that.
-1Psychohistorian
The whole thing is a bit of a half-measure. Even if people's actions are predetermined, and they are not morally accountable for them, we need to hang them anyways because without such an incentive, even more people may be billiard-balled into doing the same things. Of course, this is all quite besides the point. If you swallow billiard-ball determinism hook, line, and sinker, there's really no point in talking about why we do anything, though, as it works out, there's also little point in objecting to people discussing why we do anything, since it's all going to happen just as it happens no matter what. ETA: I'm referring to the commonly misconceived notion of determinism that thinks free will cannot exist because the universe is "merely" physical. I mean "billiard-ball determinism" as something of a pejorative, not as an accurate model of how the universe really works. I'm not claiming that a deterministic universe is incompatible with free will; indeed, I believe the opposite.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. A billiard-ball world would still contain reasons and morals.

Imagine a perfectly deterministic AI whose sole purpose in life is to push a button that increments a counter. The AI might reason as you did, notice its own determinism, and conclude that pushing the button is pointless because "it's all going to happen just as it happens no matter what". But this is the wrong conclusion to make. Wrong in a precisely definable sense: if we want that button pushed and are building an AI to do it, we don't want the AI to consider such reasoning correct.

Therefore, if you care about your own utility function (which you presumably do), this sort of reasoning is wrong for you too.

3Psychohistorian
I was evidently unclear. When I say "billiard-ball determinism" I mean the caricature of determinism many people think of, the one in which free will is impossible because everything is "merely" physical. If no decision were "free," any evaluative statement is pointless. It would be like water deciding whether or not it is "right" to flow downhill - it doesn't matter what it thinks, it's going to happen. I agree that this is not an accurate rendition of reality. I just find it amusing that people who do think it's an accurate rendition of reality still find the free-will debate relevant. If there is no free will in that sense, there is no point whatsoever to debating it, nor to discussing morality, because it's a done deal.
1Psychohistorian
I would also add that this example assumes free will - if the AI can't stop pushing the button, it doesn't really matter what it thinks about its merits. If it can, then free will is not meaningless, because it just used it.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "can't". Imagine a program that searches for the maximum element of an array. From our perspective there's only one value the program "can" return. But from the program's perspective, before it's scanned the whole array, it "can" return any value. Purely deterministic worlds can still contain agents that search for the best thing to do by using counterfactuals ("I could", "I should"), if these agents don't have complete knowledge of the world and of themselves. The concept of "free will" was pretty well-covered in the sequences.

5Psychohistorian
You're right, but you're not disagreeing with me. My original statement assumed an incorrect model of free will. You are pointing out that a correct model of free will would yield different results. This is not a disputed point. Imagine you have an AI that is capable of "thinking," but incapable of actually controlling its actions. Its attitude towards its actions is immaterial, so its beliefs about the nature of morality are immaterial. This is essentially compatible with the common misconception of no-free-will-determinism. My point was that using an incorrect model that decides "there is no free will" is a practical contradiction. Pointing out that a correct model contains free-will-like elements is not at odds with this claim.
4cousin_it
Yes, I misunderstood your original point. It seems to be correct. Sorry.
2adamisom
Psychohistorian disagrees that cousin_it was disagreeing with him. Very cute ;)
0torekp
Is billiard-ball determinism a particular variant? If so, what does the billiard-ball part add?
2[anonymous]
Granting a bit of poetic license and interpretive wiggle-room to Holmes: if we are *rule* utilitarians and the (then-current) laws are the utility-maximizing rules and the legal system is tasking with enforcing those rules, enforcing them—keeping the promise—is the rule-utilitarian'ly morally required thing to do. I think that's a utilitarian interpretation that neither does excessive violence to Holmes' quote nor the category or concept of utilitarianism.
[-]pjeby342

Telling a lazy person "Get up and do some work, you worthless bum," very well might cure the laziness.

That depends a lot on whether or not the reason they're not working is because they already feel they're worthless... in which case the result isn't likely to be an improvement.

-7Ivan_Tishchenko

Here's a perfect illustration: Halfbakery discusses the idea of a drug for alleviating unrequited love. Many people speak out against the idea, eloquently defending the status quo for no particular reason other than it's the status quo. I must be a consequentialist, because I'd love to have such a drug available to everyone.

Thanks for the link-- very entertaining discussion.

I don't think anyone came out explicitly with the idea that unrequited love works well in some people's lives and badly in others, and people would have their own judgement about whether to take a drug for it.

Instead, at least the anti-drug contingent reacted as though the existence of the drug meant that unrequited love would go away completely.

For another example, see The End of My Addiction, a book by a cardiologist who became an alcoholic and eventually found that Baclofen, a muscle relaxant, eliminated the craving and also caused him to quit being a shopoholic. He's been trying to get a study funded to see whether there's solid evidence that high doses of the drug undo addictions, but there isn't sufficient interest. It isn't just that the drug is off patent, it's that most people don't see alcohol craving as a problem in itself.

He's been trying to get a study funded to see whether there's solid evidence that high doses of the drug undo addictions, but there isn't sufficient interest.

There are a few randomized trials of baclofen, if those count:

  • Addolorato et al. 2006. 18 drinkers got baclofen, 19 got diazepam (the 'gold standard' treatment, apparently). Baclofen performed about as well as diazepam.

  • Addolorato et al. 2007.61814-5) 42 drinkers got baclofen, 42 got a placebo. More baclofen patients remained abstinent than placebo patients, and the baclofen takers stayed abstinent longer (both results were statistically significant).

  • Assadi et al. 2003. 20 opiate addicts got baclofen, 20 got a placebo. (Statistically) significantly more of the baclofen patients stayed on the treatment, and lessened depressive & withdrawal symptoms. The baclofen patients also did insignificantly better on 'opioid craving and self-reported opioid and alcohol use.'

  • Shoptaw et al. 2003. 35 cokeheads got baclofen, 35 a placebo. 'Univariate analyses of aggregates of urine drug screening showed generally favorable outcomes for baclofen, but not at statistically significant levels. There was no statistical significance obs

... (read more)
9NancyLebovitz
Thanks for looking this up. Unless I've missed something, only the third study might have used baclofen in high enough dosages to test Arneisen's hypothesis. From his FAQ:
3cupholder
Good point. I hadn't read Ameisen's FAQ; I just went running off to Google Scholar as soon as I read your comment. I might come back later and see what doses were used in each of those studies and see whether the studies with higher doses had more positive results.
1TropicalFruit
I think this is actually a case where the status quo bias shines, and the natural pull towards conservatism may be warranted. Do we have any way of reasonably predicting the social effects of curing unrequited love? What if it’s serving some behavioral or mating function that’s critical to the social order? I don’t think it’s appropriate to casually mess with complex systems like human mating, getting rid of something as widespread as unrequited love because it’s uncomfortable. That seems dangerous, and it seems like caution is the correct approach with systems that broad.

Someone once quipped about a Haskell library that "You know it's a good library when just reading the manual removes the problem it solves from your life forever." I feel the same way about this article. That's a compliment, in case you were wondering.

The one criticism I would make is that it's long, and I think you could spread this to other sites and enlighten a lot of people if you wrote an abridged version and perhaps illustrated it with silly pictures of cats.

Thank you very much. That's exactly the feeling I hoped people would have if this dissolved the question and it's great to hear.

I can't think of how to make this shorter without removing content (especially since this is already pitched at an advanced audience - anything short of LW and I'd have to explain status quo biases, preference reversal tests, and actually justify determinism).

I can, however, give you an lolcat if you want one.

9rwallace
I ran a Google search for the line you quoted, but no results; I'd be interested to know what the original author meant by it, I don't suppose you have any links handy?
9sketerpot
It was on a wiki page that was lost in a shuffle years ago. HOWEVER! I managed to track down a copy of the page, and hosted it myself. Here's the one I was paraphrasing: It's a pretty funny quotes page, if you like Haskell. And I wouldn't feel right if I didn't include my favorite thing from that page, concerning the proper indentation of C code: Having fought far too many segfaults, and been irritated by the lack of common data structures in libc, I can only agree.
1phob
Thank you for this.
1rwallace
Thanks! excellent reading.

This is a really interesting post and I will most likely respond on my own blog sometime. In the meantime, I haven't read the whole comment thread, but I don't think this article has been linked yet (I did search for the title): http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/magazine/10psyche-t.html?pagewanted=all

It's called "The Americanization of Mental Illness". Definitely worth a read; in particular, here is an excellent quotation:

It turns out that those who adopted biomedical/genetic beliefs about mental disorders were the same people who wanted less contact with the mentally ill and thought of them as more dangerous and unpredictable. This unfortunate relationship has popped up in numerous studies around the world. In a study conducted in Turkey, for example, those who labeled schizophrenic behavior as akil hastaligi (illness of the brain or reasoning abilities) were more inclined to assert that schizophrenics were aggressive and should not live freely in the community than those who saw the disorder as ruhsal hastagi (a disorder of the spiritual or inner self). Another study, which looked at populations in Germany, Russia and Mongolia, found that “irrespective of place . . . ... (read more)

0clarissethorn
Also: I recently saw a list of diseases ranked by doctors from most to least stigmatized; the list was accompanied by analysis that claimed that more respected doctors work on less stigmatized illnesses. I saw it on the Internet but alas, I can't find it now. I did find this, though: http://healthpolicy.stanford.edu/news/internet_use_can_help_patients_with_stigmatized_illness_study_finds_2006127/
[-]colah160

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but

There are several very reasonable objections to treating any condition with drugs, whether it be a classical disease like cancer or a marginal condition like alcoholism. The drugs can have side effects. They can be expensive. They can build dependence. They may later be found to be placebos whose efficacy was overhyped by dishonest pharmaceutical advertising.. They may raise ethical issues with children, the mentally incapacitated, and other people who cannot decide for themselves whether or not to take them. But these issues do not magically become more dangerous in conditions typically regarded as "character flaws" rather than "diseases", and the same good-enough solutions that work for cancer or heart disease will work for alcoholism and other such conditions.

seems to summarise to:

(1) Medical treatments (drugs, surgery, et cetera) for conditions that can be treated in other ways can have negative consequences. (2) But so do those for conditions without other treatments and we use those. (3) Therefore: we should not object to these treatments on the grounds of risks.

I'd question the validity of this argument. Consider a sc... (read more)

If I understand you right, you're saying that allowing drugs might discourage people from even trying the willpower-based treatments, which provides a cost of allowing drugs that isn't present in diseases without a willpower-based option.

It's a good point and I'm adding it to the article.

Sort-of nitpick:

The consequentialist model of blame is very different from the deontological model. Because all actions are biologically determined, none are more or less metaphysically blameworthy than others, and none can mark anyone with the metaphysical status of "bad person" and make them "deserve" bad treatment. Consequentialists don't on a primary level want anyone to be treated badly, full stop; thus is it written: "Saddam Hussein doesn't deserve so much as a stubbed toe." But if consequentialists don't believe in punishment for its own sake, they do believe in punishment for the sake of, well, consequences.

I would say "utilitarians" rather than "consequentialists" here; while both terms are vague, consequentialism is generally more about the structure of your values, and there's no structural reason a consequentialist (/ determinist) couldn't consider it desirable for blameworthy people to be punished. (Or, with regard to preventative imprisonment of innocents, undesirable for innocents to be punished, over and above the undesirability of the harm that the punishment constitutes.)

I installed a mental filter that does a find and replace from "utilitarian" to "consequentialist" every time I use it outside very technical discussion, simply because the sort of people who don't read Less Wrong already have weird and negative associations with "utilitarian" that I can completely avoid by saying "consequentialist" and usually keep the meaning of whatever I'm saying intact.

Less Wrong does deserve better than me mindlessly applying that filter. But you'd need a pretty convoluted consequentialist system to promote blame (and if you were willing to go that far, you could call a deontologist someone who wants to promote states of the world in which rules are followed and bad people are punished, and therefore a consequentialist at heart). Likewise, you could imagine a preference utilitarian who wants people to be punished just because e or a sufficient number of other people prefer it. I'm not sufficiently convinced enough to edit the article, though I'll try to be more careful about those terms in the future.

7thomblake
I, for what it's worth, think this is a good heuristic.
6utilitymonster
I'm not sure how complicated it would have to be. You might have some standard of benevolence (how disposed you are to do things that make people happy) and hold that other things being equal, it is better for benevolent people to be happy. True, you'd have to specify a number of parameters here, but it isn't clear that you'd need enough to make it egregiously complex. (Or, on a variant, you could say how malevolent various past actions are and hold that outcomes are better when malevolent actions are punished to a certain extent.) Also, I don't think you can do a great job representing deontological views as trying to minimize the extent to which rules are broken by people in general. The reason has to do with the fact that deontological duties are usually thought to be agent-relative (and time-relative, probably). Deontologists think that I have a special duty to see to it that I don't break promises in a way that I don't have a duty to see to it that you don't break promises. They wouldn't be happy, for instance, if I broke a promise to see to it that you kept two promises of roughly equal importance. Now, if you think of the deontologists as trying to satisfy some agent-relative and time-relative goal, you might be able to think of them as just trying to maximize the satisfaction of that goal. (I think this is right.) If you find this issue interesting (I don't think it is all that interesting personally), googling "Consequentializing Moral Theories" should get you in touch with some of the relevant philosophy.
2utilitymonster
Agreed. (Though I agree with the general structure of your post.) A better name for your position might be "basic desert skepticism". On this view, no one is intrinsically deserving of blame. One reason is that I don't think the determinism/indeterminism business really settles whether it is OK to blame people for certain things. As I'm sure you've heard, and I'd imagine people have pointed out on this blog, the prospects of certain people intrinsically deserving blame, independently of benefits to anyone, are not much more cheering if everything they do is a function of the outcome of indeterministic dynamical laws. Another reason is that you can have very similar opinions if you're not a consequentialist. Someone might believe that it is quite appropriate, in itself, to be extra concerned about his own welfare, yet agree with you about when it is a good idea to blame folks.
4Nick_Tarleton
Hmm? There's no reason a consequentialist can't be extra concerned about his own welfare. (Did I misunderstand this?)
1utilitymonster
Well, you clearly could be extra concerned about your own welfare because it is instrumentally more valuable than the welfare of others (if you're happy you do more good than your neighbor, perhaps). Or, you could be a really great guy and hold the view that it's good for great guys to be extra happy. But I was thinking that if you thought that your welfare was extra important just because it was yours you wouldn't count as a consequentialist. As I was mentioning in the last post, there's some controversy about exactly how to spell out the consequentialist/non-consequentialist distinction. But probably the most popular way is to say that consequentialists favor promoting agent-neutral value. And thinking your welfare is special, as such, doesn't fit that mold. Still, there are some folks who say that anyone who thinks you should maximize the promotion of some value or other counts as a consequentialist. I think this doesn't correspond as well to the way the term is used and what people naturally associate with it, but this is a terminological point, and not all that interesting.
5Vladimir_Nesov
Consequentialism doesn't work by reversing the hedonic/deontological error of focusing on the agent, by refusing to consider the agent at all. A consequentialist cares about what happens with the whole world, the agent included. I'd say it's the only correct understanding for human consequentialists to care especially about themselves, though of course not exclusively.
1utilitymonster
I hope I didn't say anything to make you think I disagree with this. I noted that there might be instrumental reasons to care about yourself extra if you're a consequentialist. But how could one outcome be better than another, just because you, rather than someone else, received a greater benefit? Example: you and another person are going to die very soon and in the same kind of way. There is only enough morphine for one of you. Apart from making one of your deaths less painful, there will be nothing relevant hangs on who gets the morphine. I take it that it isn't open to the consequentialist to say, "I should get the morphine. It would be better if I got it, and the only reason it would be better is because I was me, rather than him, who received it."
2Vladimir_Nesov
Your preference is not identical with the other person's preference. You prefer to help yourself more than the other person, and the other person similarly. There is no universal moral. (You might want to try the metaethics sequence.)
1utilitymonster
Our question is this: is there a consequentialist view according to which it is right for someone to care more about his own welfare, as such? I said there is no such view, because consequentialist theories are agent-neutral (i.e., a consequentialist value function is indifferent between outcomes that are permutations of each other with respect to individuals and nothing else; switching Todd and Steve can't make an outcome better, if Steve ends up with all of the same properties as Todd and vice versa). I agree that a preference utilitarian could believe that in a version of the example I described, it could better to help yourself. But that is not the case I described, and doesn't show that consequentialists can care extra about themselves, as such. My “consequentialist” said: Yours identifies a different reason. He says, "I should get the morphine. This is because there would be more total preference satisfaction if I did this." This is a purely agent-neutral view. My “consequentialist” is different from your consequentialist. Mine doesn't think he should do what maximizes preference satisfaction. He maximizes weighted preference satisfaction, where his own preference satisfaction is weighted by a real number greater than 1. He also doesn't think his preferences are more important in some agent-neutral sense. He thinks that other agents should use a similar procedure, weighing their own preferences more than the preferences of others. You can bring out the difference between by considering a case where all that matters to the agents is having a minimally painful death. My “consequentialist” holds that even in this case, he should save himself (and likewise for the other guy). I take it that on the view you're describing, saving yourself and saving the other person are equally good options in this new case. Therefore, as I understand it, the view you described is not a consequentialist view according to which agents should always care more about themselves, as
5jimrandomh
I don't think this is a necessary property for a value system to be called consequentialist. Value systems can differ in which properties of agents they care about, and a lot of value systems single the agent that implements them out as a special case.
0utilitymonster
This is where things get murky. The traditional definition is this: Consequentialism: an act is right if no other option has better consequences You can say that it is consistent with consequentialism (in this definition) to favor yourself, as such, only if you think that situations in which you are better off are better than situations in which a relevantly similar other is better off. Unless you think you're really special, you end up thinking that the relevant sense of "better" is relative to an agent. So some people defend a view like this: Agent-relative consequentialism: For each agent S, there is a value function Vs such that it is right for S to A iff A-ing maximizes value relative to Vs. When a view like this is on the table, consequentialism starts to look pretty empty. (Just take the value function that ranks outcomes solely based on how many lies you personally tell.) So some folks think, myself included, that we'd do better to stick with this definition: Agent-neutral consequentialism: There is an agent-neutral value function v such that an act is right iff it maximizes value relative to v. I don't think there is a lot more to say about this, other than that paradigm historical consequentialists rejected all versions of agent-relative consequentialism that allowed the value function to vary from person to person. Given the confusion, it would probably be best to stick to the latter definition or always disambiguate.
6jimrandomh
Consequentialist value systems are a huge class; of course not all consequentialist value systems are praiseworthy! But there are terrible agent-neutral value systems, too, including conventional value systems with an extra minus sign, Clippy values, and plenty of others. Here's a non-agent-neutral consequentialist value that you might find more praiseworthy: prefer the well-being of friends and family over strangers.
0utilitymonster
Yeah, the objection wasn't supposed to be that because there was an implausible consequentialist view on that definition of "consequentialism", it was a bad definition. The objection was that pretty much any maximizing view could count as consequentialist, so the distinction isn't really worth making.
[-]gwern120

Others complain that the existence of an easy medical solution prevents people from learning personal responsibility. But here we see the status-quo bias at work, and so can apply a preference reversal test. If people really believe learning personal responsibility is more important than being not addicted to heroin, we would expect these people to support deliberately addicting schoolchildren to heroin so they can develop personal responsibility by coming off of it. Anyone who disagrees with this somewhat shocking proposal must believe, on some level, that having people who are not addicted to heroin is more important than having people develop whatever measure of personal responsibility comes from kicking their heroin habit the old-fashioned way.

Now that's a good use of the reversal test!

I remember being in a similar argument myself. I was talking with someone about how I had (long ago!) deliberately started smoking to see if quitting would be hard [1], and I found that, though there were periods where I'd had cravings, it wasn't hard to distract myself, and eventually they went away and I was able to easily quit.

The other person (who was not a smoker and so probably didn't take anything personally) said, "Well, sure, in that case it's easy to quit smoking, because you went in with the intent to prove it's easy to quit. Anyone would find it easy to stay away from cigarettes in that case!"

So I said, "Then shouldn't that be the anti-smoking tactic that schools use? Make all students take up smoking, just to prove they can quit. Then, everyone will grow up with the ability to quit smoking without much effort."

[1] and many, many people have told me this is insane, so no need to remind me

I met someone who started smoking for the same reason you did once and is still addicted, so you couldn't have been at that much of an advantage.

I am torn between telling you you're insane and suggesting you take up crack on a sort of least convenient possible world principle.

5SilasBarta
Eh, I don't claim to be immune from addiction and addiction-like cravings. It's just that, AFAICT, I can only get addicted (in the broader sense of the term) to legal stuff. See this blog post for further information. I still struggle with e.g. diet and excessive internet/computer usage. And, in fairness, maybe I needed to smoke more to make it a meaningful test, though I did get to the point where I had cravings.
7NancyLebovitz
Your experiment seems to me to prove less than you'd hope about people in general-- afaik there's metabolic variation in how people react to nicotine withdrawal.
6gwern
I'm afraid I don't have anywhere near as awesome a personal story as that; I can say that my family seems to have a tradition of making kids drink some beer or alcohol a few times, though, and it seems to work.
2SilasBarta
Right, because no one actually likes the taste of alcohol, nor the inhalation of smoke; and then eventually they decide to take up drinking, or smoking, because of the psychoactive effects such as relaxation, loss of inhibitions, or getting high. Just kidding, I'm not starting that debate again! ;-)
3mindviews
I don't think that's a good example. For the status-quo bias to be at work we need to have the case that we think it's worse for people to have both less personal responsibility and more personal responsibility (i.e., the status-quo is a local optimum). I'm not sure anyone would argue that having more personal responsibility is bad, so the status-quo bias wouldn't be in play and the preference reversal test wouldn't apply. (A similar argument works for the current rate of heroin addiction not being a local optimum.) I think the problem in the example is that it mixes the axes for our preferences for people to have personal responsibility and our preferences for people not to be addicted to heroin. So we have a space with at least these two dimensions. But I'll claim that personal responsibility and heroin use are not orthagonal. I think the real argument is in the coupling between personal responsibility and heroin addiction. Should we have more coupling or less coupling? The drug in this example would make for less coupling. So let's do a preference reversal test and see if we had a drug that made your chances of heroin addiction more coupled to your personal responsiblity, would you take that? I think that would be a valid preference reversal test in this case if you think the current coupling is a local optimum.
[-]Aurini100

"But the most convincing explanation I have read for why so many people are opposed to medical solutions for social conditions is a signaling explanation by Robin Hans...wait! no!...by Katja Grace."

Yeah! The hell with that Robin Hanson guy! He's nothing but a signaller trying to signal that he's better than signalling by talking about signals!

I am so TOTALLY not like that.

;)

Great article, by the way; I just can't resist metahumour though.

I recently wrote a blog article arguing that 95% of psychology and psychiatry is snake-oil and pseudoscience; primarily I was directing my ire at the incoherency of much of it, but I had the implicit premise of dismissing the types of 'conditions' you wrote about as pathologizing the mundane.

While on the one hand, I object to much of classifying these conditions as such - if the government ever manages to mindprobe me I know they'll classify me as an alcoholic paranoid with schizoid tendencies (something that I see nothing wrong with), you present a powerful argument of "Hey, if it works, what's wrong with that?" (The day they invent a workout pill, is the day I stop going for bloody stupid jogs.)

I'd wager that most people her... (read more)

[-]neq190

We should blame and stigmatize people for conditions where blame and stigma are the most useful methods for curing or preventing the condition, and we should allow patients to seek treatment whenever it is available and effective.

I think you said it better earlier when you talked about whether the reduction in incidence outweighs the pain caused by the tactic. For some conditions, if it wasn't for the stigma there would be little-to-nothing unpleasant about it (and we wouldn't need to talk about reducing incidence).

I agree with your general principle, ... (read more)

Very good article. One thing I'd like to see covered are conditions that are "treatable" with good lifestyle choices, but whose burden is so onerous that no one would consider them acceptable. Let's say you have a genetic condition which causes you to gain much more weight (5x, 10x - the number is up to the reader) than a comparable non-affected person. So much that the only way you can prevent yourself from becoming obese is to strenuously exercise 8 hours a day. If a person chooses not to do this, are they really making a "bad" choice... (read more)

If there's some cure for the genetic condition, naturally I'd support that. Otherwise, I think it would fall under the category of "the cost of the blame is higher than the benefits would be." It's not part of this person's, or my, or society's, or anyone's preferences that this person exercise eight hours a day to keep up ideal weight, so there's no benefit to blaming them until they do.

As for the second example, regarding "is it still right to hold someone so treated /morally/ responsible for doing poorly in their life", this post could be summarized as "there's no such thing as moral responsibility as a primitive object". These people aren't responsible if they're poor, just like a person with a wonderful childhood isn't responsible if they're poor, but if we have evidence that holding them responsible helps them build a better life, we might as well treat them as responsible anyway.

(the difference, I think, is that we have much more incentive to help the person with the terrible childhood, because one could imagine that this person would respond well to help; the person with the great childhood has already had a lot of help and we have no reason to think that giving more will be of any benefit)

I agree on the cause of genetic obesity, but my answer may be different for the case of an extremely impoverished childhood. Part of my response is reflected in the fact that neither I (nor anyone I personally know) grew up in that level of poverty so that in imagining the poverty situation I have to counter-factually modify the world and I'm not sure how to do it.

In one imaginary scenario I would find someone facing facing malnutrition, violently abusive parents, mental retardation, in an environment with no effective police services in the actual world and imagine myself helping them from a distance as a stranger. This is basically "how to help the comprehensively poor as an external intervention". There are a lot of people like this on the planet and helping them is a really hard problem that is not very imaginary at all. I don't think I have any kind of useful answer that fits in this space and meshes with the themes in the OP.

A second imaginary scenario would be that I am also in the same general situation but only slightly better off. Perhaps there is rampant crime and poverty but my parents gave me minimally adequate nutrition and they weren't abusive (yet I m... (read more)

4[anonymous]
I think that's the best model for semi-voluntary problems -- it's usually not the case that no amount of effort would solve them, but that they would need much more effort than the average person. People with poor parents can become rich, but they have to work much harder than people with rich parents for the same result. If you're doing the same amount of work as an average person, I'd say you deserve as much credit as an average person.
2soreff
Excellent point. This can even be made considerably stronger: The whole health care debate was about ~15% of our economy (I'm writing from the U.S.). For any given individual, working a 40 hour week, the equivalent cost would be to burden them with ~15% of their working hours with some lifestyle choice (whether 6 hours per week of exercise or some other comparably time consuming action). Lifestyle changes can be damned expensive in terms of opportunity costs.
-2dhill
...also everything may be a problem and an opportunity. You could consider yourself lucky, if you wanted to become a body-builder. Some quirks can actually become an advantage. I would say a real solution (when available) is more robust than hiding from a problem (of wrong perception).
4AspiringKnitter
The OP probably meant adipose tissue, not muscle.
-1A1987dM
A sumo wrestler?

Great post.

We should blame and stigmatize people for conditions where blame and stigma are the most useful methods for curing or preventing the condition, and we should allow patients to seek treatment whenever it is available and effective.

I think that this rule contains the sub-rule "condemn conditions such that people are aware of the actions that lead to them" almost all the time, because our condemnation cannot possibly create positive externalities otherwise. It's similar to how jails represent no deterrence if you don't know what actio... (read more)

You're homing in on the one fuzzy spot in this essay that jumped out at me, but I don't think you're addressing it head on because you (as well as Yvain) seem to be assuming that there are, in point of fact, many situations where condemnation and lack of sympathy will have net positive outcomes.

Yvain wrote:

Yelling at a cancer patient, shouting "How dare you allow your cells to divide in an uncontrolled manner like this; is that the way your mother raised you??!" will probably make the patient feel pretty awful, but it's not going to cure the cancer. Telling a lazy person "Get up and do some work, you worthless bum," very well might cure the laziness. The cancer is a biological condition immune to social influences; the laziness is a biological condition susceptible to social influences, so we try to socially influence the laziness and not the cancer.

It seems to me that there are a minuscule number of circumstances where yelling insults that fall afoul of the fundamental attribution error is going to have positive consequences taking everything into account.

  1. In general, people do things that are logical reactions to their environments, given their limited ti

... (read more)