This is a new thread to discuss Eliezer Yudkowsky’s Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality and anything related to it. This thread is intended for discussing chapter 114, and also, as a special case due to the exceptionally close posting times, chapter 115.

There is a site dedicated to the story at hpmor.com, which is now the place to go to find the authors notes and all sorts of other goodies. AdeleneDawner has kept an archive of Author’s Notes. (This goes up to the notes for chapter 76, and is now not updating. The authors notes from chapter 77 onwards are on hpmor.com.)

Spoiler Warning: this thread is full of spoilers. With few exceptions, spoilers for MOR and canon are fair game to post, without warning or rot13. More specifically:

You do not need to rot13 anything about HP:MoR or the original Harry Potter series unless you are posting insider information from Eliezer Yudkowsky which is not supposed to be publicly available (which includes public statements by Eliezer that have been retracted).

If there is evidence for X in MOR and/or canon then it’s fine to post about X without rot13, even if you also have heard privately from Eliezer that X is true. But you should not post that “Eliezer said X is true” unless you use rot13.

Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, March 2015, chapter 114 + chapter 115
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"I wonder how difficult it would be to just make a list of all the top blood purists and kill them.

They'd tried exactly that during the French Revolution, more or less - make a list of all the enemies of Progress and remove everything above the neck..." -Harry's internal monologue, HPMOR Chapter 7

"Amusing, but that was not your first fleeting thought before you substituted something safer, less damaging. No, what you remembered was how you considered lining up all the blood purists and guillotining them. And now you are telling yourself you were not serious, but you were. If you could do it this very moment and no one would ever know, you would." -The Sorting Hat, HPMOR Chapter 10

Well...well I guess it wasn't technically a guillotine. And Harry didn't make a list himself. But Harry did do it, and set it up so no one would ever know.

7Jost
This is bloody brilliant foreshadowing!
4noahpocalypse
Eliezer was clearly thinking ahead.

Other note. Dumbeldore defeated Voldemort. He placed Minerva to intercept any discoveries of Harry and he made Harry swear not to tell anyone about it. This left Voldemort underprepaired against the weapon that got him in the end. Dumbeldore had a million plots going, and this one worked. Sometiems one is all you need.

Also don't forget trapping himself in the mirror rather than Harry.

0WalterL
I dunno, it seems like you could say Dumbledore's Father and Mother defeated Voldemort, they had a child who was intelligent enough to do those things you said. More seriously, it was a causal chain. Pretty much everyone involved was crucial. If I had to give credit to one party in particular it would be the entity or entities which hands out prophecies (I suspect this is Future!Hermione, but we'll see). Voldemort's first defeat was caused by his attempts to fulfill the first in his own way. His second was caused by his attempt to comprehensively thwart the second.
3MathMage
Over/under on there being such entities at all? It's certainly possible that our current understanding of where prophecies come from is incomplete, but the story doesn't seem to have set it up as particularly likely.
2WalterL
Ok, 5 chapters left, I have a , lets call it 70% surety that there is more left than wrapup. 1-3 chapters would be enough for that. I think there will also be a flashforward to whatever the big triumph is. Ending Death, optimizing the world, colonizing space, gaining Root on the Source of Magic, which is stored in the Mirror...
3TobyBartels
An epilogue, as in Rowling's books?
1MathMage
I would say at least 95% certainty that there's more than wrapup left, but it sounds like handing out prophecies is pretty far down on the list of additional things to cover.
2WalterL
I have a sort of uber-theory that's been hanging over me since Harry heard the whisper to meet Hermione Granger on the train, since he felt irrationally certain that Magic was real back in the very first chapters. This theory is that Future!Harry, or a friend, Future!Hermione is the one who most fits the bill, is God. Or Root on the Source Of Magic. The things that are inexplicable, that certainty, those prophecies, are just his the future self protecting its timeline, as it remembers doing, just like Harry writing "Don't mess with time" on his paper. If so, they'll sucessfully take control of reality, and discover that their uber-Time
5Nornagest
I suppose we've already broken one of those commandments, but still, the similarity's amusing.
0TuviaDulin
Pretty sure the Atlantians created the Source. There's probably a dyson sphere in our star cluster providing all the power needed for magic.
0TobyBartels
If so, then it's too bad that the Pioneer Horcrux didn't manage to make it outside of that sphere before now. Voldemort might have been in for a terrible shock if it had suddenly stopped working!
0Astazha
His irrational certainty is explained by the buried memories of Tom Riddle. I imagine Dumbledore steered him towards Hermione.
3MathMage
Chapter 8:
0Astazha
Ah yes, thanks.
0Astazha
I didn't meant to retract the whole thing. Sorry, I'm new to the site and there doesn't appear to be an undo.
0jkadlubo
I would say that the whole thing took about 3 hours (maybe more if the walk to the cemetery took a lot of time), so now that Harry used his last hour, he's about 3 hours before his past self gets the note. He has to occupy that time, and what better way than to try to free Dumbledore? I don't mind him not succeeding - I already have my "as good as possible" ending.
0Jost
In that case, the big explosion would happen about 2 hours before his past self gets the note, which would make the timeline inconsistent, since no such disturbance of the Quidditch match occurred while past!Harry was there. Given that constraint, everything that happened since Harry time-turned five hours back must have taken at least five hours.
0[anonymous]
Did he actually thwart it or will it happen?
3WalterL
I don't think you can thwart prophecies. Voldemort's efforts to do so were pointless.
0TobyBartels
I agree, but why didn't Voldemort know that?
1TobyBartels
Sure it'll happen. Harry will still do star-lifting.

After sleeping on it, I'd like to raise two problems I have with the last double-update, and see what you guys think.

1. That Harry would be able to cast Partial Transfiguration in those circumstances does not seem clearly and unambiguously established by the story so far.

(unless I'm missing something, in which case please point it out to me.)

I'm not saying it's wrong that he was able to cast it. I'm saying that as a reader, I couldn't know that in advance, and that's bad for a story.

First we're told that you can't transfigure air. And EY repeatedly insists Harry cannot overcome any limitations of magic in 60 seconds, so that felt like a hint not to look for a spellcasting solution, at least not without regaining some freedom of movement first.

We did get an earlier scene where Harry considers the fact that his wand is showing some minor wear and tear, and seems robust against small loss of wood. So yes, that feels like a hint in the other direction, maybe even fairly strong evidence.

But the thing is, magic in Harry Potter universe is arbitrary in so many ways, like that you have to say "Wingardum Leviosa" and not something else if you want to levitate something. HPMoR draw... (read more)

6kilobug
I mostly agree with the first part, and it's an important reason for which I didn't like the "final exam" concept, there is just too much we don't really know about how HPMOR world works. It's fine from a pure story-telling point of view, because we can assume Harry knows more about it than we do (he's living in it after all, he did read many books about magic, do many experiments, attend to lessons, ...) but it's not fair to ask us to outguess such things. For the second part, I don't really agree. Think about the emotional state of Harry. He got through a very very stressy times, and despite all odds, he won. I must be feeling some euphoria for that. And at the same time, he killed dozens fo people. In self-defense, sure. But he, the anti-deathist just killed dozens of people. In such a situation, the mixing of euphoria of winning against all odds and the horror of having just killed, wondering what the future ethical transhuman civilization would do and think about all that feels totally appropriate to me. It's exactly what I would expect of Harry, the one who (re-)invented True Patronus.
1MarkusRamikin
I concede this. I think I just don't like this part of Harry that much, but that is not the same as saying it's not in character. The rest of my point remains, that after all all the pressure built up in the previous 8 chapters, this one is too relaxed and lacking in precautionary thinking. Is it really fine from a storytelling point of view? I suggest that correct storytelling means making solution-relevant rules clear in advance. Like in Death Note, the plot often hinges on how exactly the notebooks work, but these rules - and how much each character knows about them - are made very clear before they become pivotal. And clearly EY tried to do this, and came close (with the robust-wand thing). I just don't think it quite worked.

So, apparently, the final exam question was "What would Taylor Hebert do?".

6Alsadius
Anyone who gives a speech in a school talking about how drugs are fun is a good person to emulate, IMO.
0Ben Pace
Er, Taylor Hebert from Worm did that? Could you remind me of when that was? Edit: I mean talked about drugs in a school.
5Nornagest
Closest analogy to this that I can remember offhand is when she phgf Rpuvqan va unys hfvat fcvqrefvyx yvarf cyhf Pybpxoybpxre'f grzcbeny svkngvba cbjre. (spoilers for about halfway through the story)
2Ben Pace
Oh, I hadn't realised that was what the top comment meant, I just thought he was referring to the killing part. Damn, that's nice.
0Nornagest
Yeah, scenes like that are a good bit of why I like Worm. Which reminds me, I haven't caught up on Pact for a week or two...
4Alsadius
https://parahumans.wordpress.com/category/stories-arcs-21/arc-23-drone/23-04/ (edited slightly for spoilers) “I always hated the speeches when I was in school, the preaching in auditoriums, the one-note message. Stuff like saying drugs are bad. It’s wrong. Drugs are fantastic.” “Um,” Fox-mask said. Mrs. Yamada was glaring at me, but she hadn’t interrupted. “People wouldn’t do them if they weren’t. They make you feel good, make your day brighter, give you energy-” “Taylor,” Mrs. Yamada cut in. “-until they don’t,” I said. “People hear the message that drugs are bad, that they’ll ruin your life if you do them once. And then you find out that isn’t exactly true because your friends did it and turned out okay, or you wind up trying something and you’re fine. So you try them, try them again. It isn’t a mind-shattering moment of horrible when you try that first drug. Or so I hear. It’s subtle, it creeps up on you, and you never really get a good, convincing reason to stop before it ruins your life beyond comprehension. I never went down that road, but I knew a fair number of people who did.”
4Subbak
As Weaver, she said something like "Drugs are awesome kids, but it's what comes after that really sucks. Being a supervillain is the same".
2Subbak
I guess micro-managing the nanotubes isn't so different conceptually from micro-managing bugs carrying silk ropes...
3Vaniver
Yeah, but remember that guvf eryvrq ba pbzchgngvbany cbjre pbzvat sebz gur bgure havirefr, naq nf V erpnyy vg jura fur yriryrq hc vg pbafhzrq zber naq zber bs ure oenva gb pbageby ure cbjre.
2jkadlubo
I wouldn't agree. As some early point she grfgrq ure yvzvgf naq qrpvqrq fur pbhyq qvivqr ure nggragvba orgjrra nal ahzore bs ohtf jvgubhg nal fbeg bs qenjonpx. Fur ybfg ure zvaq jura Cnanprn punatrq ure oenva, fb gung zvtug zrna pbagebyyvat uhznaf jnf gur gvccvat cbvag be vg jnf Cnanprn'f zvfgnxr.
0Sheaman3773
After Gnlybe orpbzrf n Jneq, fur unf gb qb n choyvpvgl ovg ng n tenqr fpubby. She told them that taking drugs was fun, and felt great...until it wasn't, and ruined everything good about your life. It's in chapter 23.04 ETA: Dang, didn't notice someone below me already posted much the same. Oh well.
0[anonymous]
Vzzrqvngryl orsber Orurzbgu nggnpx.
4[anonymous]
Alternatively, "What would Neji do?"
3Velorien
Thank you for that mental image, which will likely never leave the traumatised recesses of my mind.
2hairyfigment
A: Taylor would violate her mentor's mind and then make him look like a hero.
0Luke_A_Somers
Answer A: Carbon nanotube spiders. Ouch. Answer B: I think all of them were in range. Admin powers time?

Do The Impossible, indeed. Looping a thin thread over someone's head several meters away is tricky business. The slightest bit of wind throws it off. And this must be done without moving the wand or betraying the operation through one's facial expression. I can't imagine it being done without the utmost concentration, allowing of course for effort to be expended talking to Voldemort and maintaining mental blocks against any Legilimens among the Death Eaters (recall that in Half-Blood Prince Snape was able to detect spells forming in Harry's mind). This is all done perfectly the first time around. Thirty-six times, plus Voldemort's wrists.

I suppose one can honestly say A Wizard Did It...

0noahpocalypse
Snake detecting spells: Canon!Harry sucked at Occlumency.

Reading the chapters again, I can't help feeling that, while Harry's sudden victory is satisfying from a "we, the fandom, have passed the test" perspective, without that context it is really unnatural. Harry abruptly goes from being utterly emotionally overwhelmed and reeling to the flawless, cold-blooded execution of a perfect plan that fully draws on a number of disparate ideas and abilities.

Edit: Also, I'm far from the first person to say this, but Harry's sudden spike in competence is preceded by Voldemort becoming a hammier, less intelligent villain. His precautions against Harry attempting to escape, and his plans for how to kill him reliably, are reasonably intelligent, but there are a dozen simpler and/or more effective countermeasures he could have taken, starting with something as obvious as getting rid of Harry's wand.

If there were more chapters left to go, I'd put money on "Voldemort let all this happen as part of a greater gambit", but as things stand I'm feeling pessimistic.

8solipsist
* The villain allows the hero to win * The villain is weaker than the hero * Deus ex machina * The hero doesn't win Take at least one.
8Velorien
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In most stories that involve a final conflict between a hero and a villain, none of those options apply. The villain is stronger, and is defeated through some combination of circumstances and advantages that allow the hero to bypass that strength or temporarily exceed it (typically through significant effort and/or sacrifice, often prior to the confrontation).
1solipsist
Right, that's what happened in this story: Harry temporarily got the upper hand on Voldemort. Voldemort allowed Harry to get the upper hand. When Voldemort possessed Quirrell's body, he didn't just take over the world over the course of a week. When Voldemort realized that Harry was an existential threat, he didn't relieve Harry of his limbs, mind, and freedom to move outside a little box. Voldemort allowed Harry to be a threat because otherwise there wouldn't have been a story.

Voldemort allowed Harry to be a threat because otherwise there wouldn't have been a story.

The problem is that he did so in a way that feels inconsistent with the rest of the story. Most villains in most stories aren't the type that would relieve their nemesis of his limbs, mind, and freedom to move outside a little box. Sauron didn't seal off the Cracks of Doom, or even post a serious guard around them. The Emperor didn't place the shield generator on Endor in a hidden underground compound guarded by a small army. A great succession of villains have failed to just shoot James Bond. HPMOR!Voldemort would do all of those things, because from the start his extraordinarily high intelligence and skill at what he does have been cornerstones of his character. When he makes a mistake, many readers will assume (and have assumed, usually correctly) that it is a deliberate ploy. Mistakes as bad as what we're seeing here aren't just folly; they verge on character derailment.

[-]TsviBT180

As a simple matter of fact, Voldemort is stronger than Harry in basically every way, other than Harry's (incomplete) training in rationality. If Voldemort were a good enough planner, there's no way he could lose; he is smarter, more powerful, and has more ancient lore than any other wizard. If Voldemort were also rational, and didn't fall prey to overconfidence bias / planning fallacy...

Well, you can be as rational as you like, but if you are human and your opponent is a superintelligent god with a horde of bloodthirsty nanobots, the invincible Elder Lightsaber, and the One Thing to Rule Them All, then the story is going to read less like HPMOR, and more like:

"...HE IS THE END OF THE WORLD." Quirinus Quirrell calmly activated the toe ring he had prepared months ago, causing the capsule of sulfuric acid embedded in the top of Harry's skull (placed there earlier by an Imperiused Madam Pomfrey, in case of emergency) to break open and quickly dissolve the other Tom Riddle. Quirrell shook his head in disappointment as he felt the sense of doom diminish and then disappear, but it had to be done. He turned to walk towards the third floor corridor. The End.

4Velorien
Yup. So the solution is not to make your villain a superintelligent god with a horde of bloodthirsty nanobots, the invincible Elder Lightsaber, and the One Thing to Rule Them All to begin with. Eliezer took the risk of setting up an incredibly powerful villain, and it is to his credit as a writer that up until the very end he made us believe that he was capable of writing a satisfying resolution anyway. Frankly, he still might. There are four chapters left, and Eliezer is nothing if not capable of surprising his audience. And as a Naruto fan, he might also have come across Bleach (another of the Big Three shounen series), and learned from its author already having made the exact same mistake.
2Eli Tyre
Ah. But he would want to be more careful than that, because there's a prophecy, and Voldemort got burned the last time a prophecy was involved. So he goes out of his way to tear it apart, by bringing Hermione back, for instance, which required the stone, and having the other Tom swear an unbreakable vow.
1Pongo
There wouldn't have been such a prophecy if Voldemort had been sufficiently rational
2solipsist
Professor Quirrell will always be a step ahead of you, will always outwit you. You cannot beat him in any game. That is the characterization of the Defense Professor. A story cannot start with "You can't beat the Professor Quirrell at any game" and end with "Professor Quirrell has lost the game" without a character break in between.

Is that what we've seen presented so far?

Dumbledore won during the Battle of the Three Armies. His assault on Azkaban would have gotten him killed (and more seriously, set back his efforts by years) for a stupid communication error, were Harry not willing to risk his own life and invent new magic to save the man. Hermoine outlasted several hours of the Defense Professor's most aggressive psychological attacks possible, using fairly basic deontology. His 'lesson plan' with Ma-Ha-Su in Chapter 16 was bluntly stupid, even if Harry hadn't used the easy way out. In Chapter 35, he fears that Harry has screwed over his plans because of voicing an obvious disagreement that Harry has repeatedly given privately before.

And that's before we get to the stupidity that was enforced by canon : testing multiple novel spells (Horcruxes, however he 'reformated' the young Harry Potter) without sufficient and verified safeties, the highly fractious Death Eaters, the lackluster war with Dumbledore.

Quirrellmort is smart. He thinks ahead. But his fundamental philosophy is still very restricted. As much as he tries to claim otherwise, he's running on distilled Command Push -- we'll note that no De... (read more)

THANK YOU.

1CronoDAS
If you want a retcon that makes it actually reasonable to let Harry keep his wand, let's say that speaking Parseltongue only makes you tell the truth if you're also holding a wand at the same time. (Or that you can't speak it at all without it.)

I think this is a great comment, but could you please expand on two points?

His 'lesson plan' with Ma-Ha-Su in Chapter 16 was bluntly stupid, even if Harry hadn't used the easy way out.

What are you talking about here?

And also

he's running on distilled Command Push

What does this mean?

What are you talking about here?

In Chapter 16, Quirrelmort instructed the class in a very simple hex that caused a small amount of pain and no lasting harm called Ma-Ha-Su. He then selects three students, Hermoine, Draco, and Harry Potter, and then requires them to select a student and fire Ma-Ha-Su at them, taking Quirrel and later House points for non-compliance. The comparisons to the Millgram Experiments become explicit in chapter 63. Hermoine refuses, Draco fires on Hermoine, and Harry fires on himself.

Harry explicitly beats Quirrelmort's plans, here : "Yes, quite ingenious, but there was a lesson to be taught and you dodged it." It's not clear he ever gets the intended lesson, given that Quirrelmort seemed to intend to teach Harry to harm Draco on obedient command.

Interestingly, this could have not just failed but have gone horribly wrong for Quirrelmort, and he wouldn't have even understood why. One of the common responses to Millgram-like actions in the last few years of science fiction is to turn on the person giving illegal orders. Harry wouldn't do that because of his upbringing, but other possible Riddle-clones would wanted to fire Ma-Ha-Su on Quirrel... (read more)

2Ben Pace
That was very interesting, thanks.
7Nornagest
I wondered the same thing. The only thing Google gave me that made sense in context was jargon from a Civilization wiki, meaning a style of military command where orders include implementation details: "here's the actions you need to take". The pitfalls of this style are that it places increased cognitive and communications load on the commander, that it can fail to account for local or changing conditions, and that it can lead to poor responsiveness under conditions of imperfect communication. Current management theory (and, I believe, Western military doctrine, though I'm not an expert) favors objective-based orders: "here's the goal you need to accomplish". That leaves implementation details up to subordinates.
8Vaniver
The term of art is mission-type tactics or mission command.
1Ben Pace
This makes a lot of sense, thank you. I see the parent comment to mine is right too, that this is Voldemort's political philosophy. Give me all the power, and then all of my values will be attained.
7MathMage
...or character growth in the protagonist, theoretically.
1solipsist
Perhaps, but you have to get around why the villain doesn't destroy the growing threat while it's still weak.
7Velorien
Which isn't a problem in HPMOR, because we've been given a number of persuasive reasons why Quirrell wanted Harry alive - he didn't change his mind about this until he heard the prophecy about Harry destroying the world, at which point it seems he decided to kill Harry as soon as he'd used him to obtain the Philosopher's Stone.
7dxu
That... sounds dangerously close to "did it because of Plot", which isn't supposed to happen in a rational story.
0[anonymous]
(No, the options I gave in the bullets are not comprehensive. I couldn't find an airtight but pity way to express conundrum inherent in having strong villains lose).
4dxu
While I wouldn't go quite that far, I do agree with you on one thing: leaving Harry his wand was really stupid. Why did he let Harry keep his wand?

Let me have a go at coming up with a dozen:

  • Get rid of Harry's wand (as mentioned)
  • Remove Harry's glasses (which could have been a transfigured anything, and Voldemort had just taught Harry how to dispel transfiguration by mere physical contact)
  • Bind or paralyse Harry, with rope or a Death Eater spell
  • Have a Death Eater Imperius Harry with a command to obey Voldemort and do nothing else
  • Have a Death Eater use a Confundus Charm on Harry to make him trust Voldemort and not look for ways to escape
  • Blind Harry - he doesn't need his eyes to tell Voldemort his secrets, just his ears and tongue
  • On the same principle, Voldemort could happily dismember him, as long as magic was used to prevent death from blood loss or shock, and distraction from pain
  • Drain Harry of magic by forcing him to cast innocuous spells
  • Use illusions to disguise the number and location of the Death Eaters so that Harry is unable to come up with targeted countermeasures against them (and so are any unexpected rescuers)
  • Cast a spell on Hermione as a dead man's switch - something that will not permanently hurt/kill her unless Harry does something to incapacitate Voldemort and prevent him from dispelling it in time (not
... (read more)

I posted this as part of my review. I think it explains the wand thing. As so often happens in real life, we don't see the workings of mind that lead to every decisive factor in an outcome. In real life, we get to the end of a problem and often don't know why a particular mistake was made. ...

A small disturbance dwelt in my mind for these days, for I had concluded that Eliezer had already contrived a clever solution for Harry, sealed off all other such pathways, and that a strong indicator of what that contrived plan was, was that Voldemort left Harry with his wand after the Vow. Curious, that, oui? Voldemort specifically forbade Harry to raise his wand, and told his servants to attack him in a flurry of eclectic attacks, the mere thought of which would inevitably have an emotional effect on Harry, clouding his mental acuity. Since, Voldemort has in his consciousness that Harry has his wand, and has no reason to let him hold it, the clear explanation is that Eliezer could only think of a way for Harry to win if he had his wand, so he made Voldemort make a stupid mistake, it was the best he could do. Still quite good; I did not begrudge him it.

Since victory depends upon the wand, an... (read more)

2Jiro
If letting Harry have the wand is out of character as a mistake, but in character as a test, not only does that mean that letting him have the wand is a test, it also means that Harry should be able to figure out that letting him have the wand is a test. This ruins the usefulness of the test as a test.
0Bound_up
I'm not positive I understand. You think that letting Harry have his wand either is or isn't a sufficient clue to deduce that it is a test, and that If it is a sufficient clue, Harry will know it's a test. Harry's knowing it is a test will ruin the nature of the test. It if is not a sufficient clue, Harry cannot be tested by it, as nobody can be expected to deduce such a thing. Therefore, neither option aligns with Voldemort's goals, and the test is out of character for him as a rational being. If I do understand, I think the this part of my post implies the response I will now clarify: "But! For Harry to submit, and this of his own free will, this despite his apparent Plot-Induced Loophole, this is a proof of his self-mastery, and of his rationality. For to submit for lack of spirit is not the same as to submit for the understanding of its ideal nature." Allowing Harry to keep his wand is a sufficient clue that something is wrong. If it's enough to make me feel confused, it's enough for the more rational being Harry can become in this circumstance. Harry's deducing that it is a test does not destroy the test, because that is the test! ;) To deduce such a thing is a test of rationality. For him to be able to lose in such a situation is a further test of the great limit to his rationality throughout, his emotions, especially his pride, his disproportionate value of his own social dominance. So it was a feasible test of his rationality on two important levels.

I think there may be some hindsight bias here. We know that Harry has partial transfiguration and we know that it turns out poorly for LV. LV himself did not know these things. To the best of his knowledge (which he has good reason to believe is considerable and maybe exhaustive) there is no magic Harry can cast wordlessly with his wand down.

For LV to enact the additional precautions above, magic would be needed. He can't use magic on Harry, so taking them means reducing the size of the death eater guard by 1 or more during the time needed to take those precautions. If you don't know that Harry can do previously unknown to the world wandless magic, than that might actualy not seem like a good trade off.

Additionally, regardless of if trading 1 guard for additional precautions is actualy a good security trade, it is totaly in character that the kind of mind that created horcrux number 107 after allready having over a hundred redundant horcruxes would think the additional redundancy of guard 36 over guard 35 to be valuable.

6Velorien
I take your general point, but part of Voldemort's character as we have seen it is that he is Crazy Prepared, building in failsafes and backup options and safety margins well beyond the reasonable minimum. He is not merely capable of dealing with whatever challenges the narrative throws at him; he is comfortable, even leisurely, in the manner in which he deals with them. I doubt the cost of temporarily reducing the Death Eater guard from 36 to 35 is greater than the benefit of a given precaution. I don't understand this sentence. Would you mind rephrasing?
1William_Quixote
You're right about the last sentence. Perils of typing on a cell phone. I've edited it to make sense.
4Velorien
Fair enough. In regard to that, I would also observe that Voldemort (likely correctly) thinks his Death Eaters are idiots, which mitigates their perceived value to him versus precautions he personally would think up.
3[anonymous]
But Voldemort does know that Harry can cast one particular type of wordless, wandless magic -- he knows it because he taught him. Harry can end transfigurations. And he still has his glasses. Can Voldemort sense transfigurations that Harry is maintaining? If not, Harry could have a piece of Scotch tape stuck someplace it wouldn't be noticed, or a booger hidden up his nose, or a capsule up his butt like a drug smuggler, or a tooth, or a fingernail, or a toenail, or... If Voldemort can't sense Harry's transfigurations, he should be operating under the assumption that Harry has a capsule up his butt that he can excrete and untransfigure into a deus ex machina. He doesn't need his hands to end a transfiguration, and he doesn't need his hands to poop. (If you prefer it to be a tooth, say it's a tooth. That's what Voldemort did.) Of course, Voldemort doesn't seem to be the sort of person who would do that. He goes through the motions of being careful, but constant vigilance is not one of his strong points. And that's not, narratively speaking, a character flaw: if you think everyone else is a stupid NPC, you're not going to see a point in paranoia. He should've kicked himself in the face as soon as he taught Harry how to do that. But he's not the sort of person who would. Also, Harry should start carrying some transfigured teeth. A gun, a knife, and a broomstick, maybe? But I think I'm not being paranoid enough.
0TobyBartels
Only 3 transfigured teeth? Not paranoid enough! He's got room in his mouth for 28 items. (Or 32 if he has a big mouth.)
9Astazha
I'm with everyone else on the wand thing. It would have been simple enough to have him drop it. One narrative explanation for getting the wand back into Harry's hand would have been V asking for a demonstration of PT after Harry told him of it. Another would be to throw away the simplest timeline thing and let time-turned Harry come to the rescue with that solution, wand, cloak, etc. in hand. Though I don't know why V left him an hour on the time-turner either. But: My real confusion starts way before all of this. You have the idiot-child of prophesied destruction, and what you do not do is back him into a corner where he may decide to do something desperate. Making Harry feel threatened was a big risk to take with that prophecy. V transforms into a super scary villain, putting Harry under massive duress, the exact kind of thing that would possibly cause him to destroy the world through time paradox or some other unknown power. It would have made more sense to bind him with an unbreakable vow long before then, to maintain the pretense of friendship throughout. So he guessed you're Voldemort, fine. Come clean, acknowledge what your plan to rule Britain was, and that you have been planning to place Harry as the ruler this time. Have that discussion. Come clean about the existence of a prophecy. Tell him you intend to resurrect Hermione. That you need to know what secret power he has so you can help him avoid the inadvertent destruction of the entire universe. Remind him of the centaur prophecy. Get him on your side that he is a serious risk to everyone. Brief the Death Eaters ahead of time, have a few that Harry doesn't know present out of uniform for a fake ritual of divination that supposedly requires him to be completely nude and holding no objects. At the agreed upon time in the ritual they all just AK him and Harry dies with his eyes wide going "Wait, WHAT?" and thinking you were his friend until the last. V broadcasts his betrayal so far in advance, and that
6Velorien
Definitely worth saying. I know I'm being very critical in this thread, but that's largely because I'm so emotionally invested in this story, which in turn is because it's an extraordinarily good story.
1Astazha
I missed when writing this that there was the curse preventing V from killing H. But he still could have just let the centaur kill him. If the curse also stopped him from allowing the death of H then he still could have tried to get the Unbreakable Vow from Harry before making shit hit the fan.
5ChristianKl
He made a point to have Hermione alive in case Harry get out of the situation. It's no mistake that he doesn't.
2Eliezer Yudkowsky
Hmm... the blinding one is potentially interesting, if Harry partially-Transfigures himself eyeballs using the fact that his hand is touching the wand, and uses the Stone to make them permanent later... but he'd have to avoid Voldemort noticing that his eyes were back.
2Gurkenglas
So he regains his eyesight and then notices that there's a black-painted bubble-head charm on him, just in case. x) Voldie really should have gotten Moody as an advisor.
1dxu
I feel I should reiterate that I agree with you. I'm not seeing an in-universe reason for Voldemort's behavior in these two chapters either, except for maybe "He was overconfident and didn't see the need to take such excessive precautions", which isn't all that narratively satisfying, though it is somewhat realistic. (The planning fallacy is a thing, after all, and even Tom Riddle Jr. Sr. isn't immune.)
0ChristianKl
I don't think there a good reason for Voldemort to think that giving Harry another minute with his wand adds much on top of what Harry could already do before.
1Velorien
Look at it from another perspective: Voldemort's actions are based on the belief that Harry has powerful secrets unknown to him. One or more of those secrets may well lead to the end of the world if Harry lives. Given that Voldemort is acknowledging his ignorance of Harry's full capabilities, is there any possible excuse for not trying to limit those capabilities as much as possible?
0kilobug
Half of those would either have prevented Harry for reveling his secrets to LV (paralyze, Imperius) or not changed anything in that case (bind with a rope, remove glasses, horcrux, hostages). Some are doubtful : confudus I'm not sure it would have worked since Harry is an Occlumens, illusions to hide a few Death Eaters, I'm not sure the remaining hidden Death Eaters would have done anything when seeing all Death Eaters dropping dead and LV collapsing. Death Eaters aren't especially loyal nor courageous, they obey by fear, and a 11 years old boy able to kill a dozen without moving (and who is known to scare dementors, and ...) is as scary as Voldemort. Now, sure, it's always possible to imagine in hindsight ways Voldemort could have used to save the day for himself. As it is for Dumbledore before, and for Harry earlier (see the lack of recognition code, ...). But if you nitpick that way, is there any fiction that is satisfying for you ? People do mistakes, even very smart people. The only real mistake Voldemort did was the wand thing, the rest is pretty much nitpicking. And one mistake, which with Voldemort knowledge was very low-risk, can happen without hurting too much the suspension of disbelief.
7Velorien
It doesn't matter so much that Voldemort didn't see the exact means of his downfall coming. What bothers me most is that he was sloppy. The point of my post is that I am much less intelligent than Voldemort, and vastly less experienced in cunning and subterfuge, yet I was able to think of a dozen relatively practical means of reducing risk from Harry in 20 minutes. How many would Voldemort have thought of and implemented if he'd tried? Maybe they wouldn't have worked against the actual solution Harry chose. That only makes the story better. It means Harry successfully defeats the Voldemort we know and love, Voldemort at the top of his game, not a cut-down Voldemort shacked by a sudden Idiot Ball. A satisfying way to defeat Voldemort would take advantage of his genuine weaknesses - his despair in humanity, his loneliness, his arrogance, his inability to comprehend genuine compassion, his need for a worthy foe. But until the latest chapters, he had not been shown to have the weaknesses of carelessness, poor planning, or leaving a dangerous enemy armed when they are in his power.
3hairyfigment
Why assume you're "much less intelligent than Voldemort," in addition to the gap in experience? As others have noted, he makes mistakes all the time. (I was surprised by the news that he actually died and was actually trapped for years, but not by him leaving Harry's wand alone given this previous information.) We know that V had vast experience with magic and secret information about the same, which could support your view but could also be a disadvantage when it came to partial transfiguration. Note that the mistake he knew about with the Horcrux network (and would perhaps have updated on) partly consisted of thinking he could overcome a long-established magical limitation without testing it. Maybe the actual complaint should be that Harry's use of partial transfiguration shouldn't have worked without more testing - though here we know that he based it on vast civilizational knowledge which V had only begun to assimilate.
3Vaniver
So, up until the prophecy, Voldemort can coexist with Harry. (The reverse may not be true.) So why did Eliezer add the prophecy to the mix? Was it just to set up the eventual duel between H and V? It seems to me that that's the place to do an Author's Saving Throw, if there is one; if people reason about V as an optimization process rather than a character, they will never be satisfied by V losing a duel because V is defined by his duel-winning property. So the only winning move is not to play, but there are satisfying ways for that to happen. (In fact, I think I might write that up in long form.)
1hairyfigment
Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres only exists because of the prophecy!
0Vaniver
I am referring to the prophecy that Trelawney gives in chapter 21, that is original to Eliezer, not the prophecy that Snape hears and leaks to Voldemort that was written by Rowling.
1hairyfigment
Oh yes, that does seem like the pivotal moment in retrospect. It also seems central to the story. And it extends the Chosen One theme in canon, taking it up to Aleph-Null.
[-][anonymous]210

I'm so disappointed that the Partial Transfiguration faction turned out to be correct.

Yeah, this is one of those solutions that, had I been writing, I would have ruled as not actually workable. Takes too long, Voldemort or a Death Eater sees the threads and breaks them on general principles, nanotubes don't actually have enough tensile strength to reasonably slice up everybody at once consistently, and so forth. I pretty much filed any tactical violence plan under "not practical".

Still, not my story. It's not out of keeping with the rest of the stuff in HPMOR.

High odds that Voldemort escaped. He's been extraordinarily hammy this whole time, and he called all the Death Eaters together, killed or crippled a few, and then explained his evil scheme to the hero before giving him a countdown to his inevitable death, while leaving him armed. It seems very plausible that Tom Riddle was tired of Lord Voldemort, and decided to retire him via dramatic massacre. Why make his new body a snaky freak-show, after all?

On the pedantic nitpicker trivia side of things, you don't have a tank of "oxyacetelene". An oxy-acetylene rig uses a tank of oxygen, and a tank of acetylene. But Harry is probably not a welder, and neither are the Weasely twins, so nobody involved was equipped to notice the problem.

8Transfuturist
The volume of the transfiguration makes it negligibly quick; nanotubes have the highest tensile strength of any material and they were not lone tubes, but braided; I'm fairly sure spotting a braided nanowire in the dark is nearly impossible; and the tension transfiguration is what made the slicing consistent. How exactly is it not practical?
3DanielLC
That's why you have multiple tactical violence plans running at the same time. Mine had neurotoxin and jets of fluorine. Also, Harry could transfigure a flashbang if he gets noticed, and he reinforces his body with carbon nanotubes for in case he gets shot.
2Subbak
We know for a fact that the Hogwarts wards do not raise an alarm when they should, because they did not detect Draco being under a Blood-Cooling Charm. And we also know that Voldie had a better idea regarding those wards (whether he actually had said wards in place around Draco is debatable, but still, he had the idea). So I think it's extremely probable that the wards he has to detect his own death are more efficient than the Hogwarts wards, and he's currently riding Bella's body and kicking himself for once more not having just used Avada Kedavra.
5Phigment
Or he and Bella are kicking back on a beach in the Caribbean, drinking alcohol from coconuts and murdering anyone who plays loud music nearby or fails to clean up after their dogs. Rematch in twenty years.
0MathMage
The Blood-Cooling Charm was invented for the story specifically to offer a means of murder that didn't set off the wards until the point of death; furthermore, if a professor (Quirrell) cast it, the wards wouldn't trigger anyway.
4Subbak
Well, yes, but it had to be believable that Hermione had cast it, therefore we can assume that it would not have triggered the wards even if Quirrel had not cast it.

Me too. I didn't say this a couple of days ago, owing to a lack of confidence that I now see to have been misguided; but while the nanowire PT solution is reasonable and effective and exactly the sort of thing that a sci-fi fan who fancies themselves clever would come up with, it's narratively shallow. And I can't see messily killing thirty-six people as in character for Harry at this moment, however much noise has been made about killing intent. Coming up with creative ways to kill people is one thing; actually going through with it in anger, or even thinking of it when faced with real hostility, is quite another.

(I'm also not totally sure it would work, but that depends on messy materials-science math that I can't be bothered with right now.)

Lest I be accused of being overly negative, though, the Obliviation bit does have a certain elegant symmetry to it.

2buybuydandavis
Convenient, is it not, that Harry had the apparent necessity of killing all the Death Eaters? Good guys only kill when they have to - but somehow, after the heros have nobly declined to kill the bad guys when they aren't forced to, the cops always manage to get their guns stolen by the criminal, and the good guys get to take them down in self defense anyway.
2gattsuru
MoR!Harry's opposition to killing has always been more of a philosophical objection than an instinctual one, foreshadowed heavily back in chapters 7, 10, and 16. Given the effects of Voldemort's alterations to his brain during youth, depending on your idea of identity this not the typical situation of confronting the psychological cost of taking life. Ironically, non-lethal transfiguration was probably available, even if Harry wouldn't or couldn't think of it -- there's no restriction to, say, converting people's blood into propofol or methohexital, for example. That'd be unhealthy even beyond the normal health risks of human transfiguration, but in exchange for its risk of breathing issues and transmutation-related blood-clot-in-brain effects, comes with the benefit of exceptionally fast activity, and the volume required is well within the constraints of the problem. While the Deatheaters are more complicated a problem despite Voldemort calling them useless, there are a handful of other possible solutions that would be less likely immediately lethal. The only person Harry /had/ to maim was Voldemort, and that's because direct transfiguration would have alerted him. Given that Harry almost certainly killed Sirius, and probably killed Lucius, and we have a number of chapters left, this may well end up being a narrative complication and a flaw, even if an understandable one.
1buybuydandavis
Free transfiguration requires wand contact with the object, right? Seems a little arbitrary at the quantum level, but I think that prevents Harry from just transfiguring someone's blood from afar.
2gattsuru
It's implied that more experienced wizards and witches can freely transfigure objects at a range, but Harry can't do that. However, even without Partial Transfiguration, objects that have been joined together can be transmuted as a whole (see chapter 28, with a wand touching one part of an object and converting parts into different components. We've also seen transfiguration operate differently on different components of a system. Once Harry has stuck spider-silk between his wand and a Death Eater, he can convert components of the Death Eater as easily as if he were standing next to them. Harry's not shown any interest in this sort of biochemistry (the closest we've seen is a reference to "knockout gas", which means he knows less than nothing), and while propofol was well-known in 1992, it's not referenced in the sort of literature he's likely to read, he has been trained not to consider transmuting humans, his character isn't really aligned with less-lethal conversions, and there is a very high complexity penalty to this plan. There are also some possible volumetric issues. We hadn't gotten an actual transfiguration rate since chapter 23, where he could only do five cubic centimeters per minute, while it would take about ~15 cubic centimeters of propofol to rapidly sedate this number of Death Eaters. The post-exam chapter gave an update of cubic millimeter "as fast as he can concentrate his will and magic" and "in a fraction of a second", which is imprecise enough to be useless. He was able to transfigure a unicorn in about an hour and a twelve-year-old's corpse fast enough to avoid notice, recently, and presuming unicorns are similar in volume to even a small horse he'd need to be moving much faster than 15 cubic centimeters a minute (900 cubic centimeters is less than a liter, a very small shetland pony would operate somewhere in the area of 180-200 liters, so... not sure folk did the math on that one). But it's interesting as a thought experiment. This isn't
1TobyBartels
Now, why didn't you suggest this during the exam!?
9Jost
Same here. On the other hand, the description in chapter 114 read a lot nicer than all the suggestions that I read in the discussion thread on chapter 113. I guess there’s a difference between the bare-bones suggestion (which is clever, but unsatisfying) and the fully fleshed out story (which I found satisfying enough) and I did not think of this in my earlier comments. My apologies to everyone who got a doubtful response from me!
8Gondolinian
Thank Merlin they didn't listen to us and continued submitting PT solutions. :)
3Normal_Anomaly
Shotgun plotting: sometimes one hit is all you need.
1cousin_it
Yeah. I really hoped Eliezer would go for a pure verbal solution. Something like what I proposed, but smarter.
1Alsadius
As opposed to? (I wasn't keeping close track of the theories as we went forward).
6Gondolinian
Those who tried to honestly persuade or verbally trick Voldemort into letting Harry out of the box.
1skeptical_lurker
But, what would "letting Harry out of the box." mean? Letting him live, while Voldiemort still takes over the world?
1Gondolinian
Well, that's not really a worse situation than we've had all through chapters 105-112, and still leaves Harry in a position to take any opportunities to stop Voldemort that appear. Being dead while Voldemort takes over the world, however, would have been quite a lot worse.
1skeptical_lurker
Well, it depends how long EY wanted the story to go on for. With another four chapters to wrap everything up, there's not enough time for Voldemort keeping Harry alive while he takes over the world, before the tables turn again, Harry is sprung from a dungeon and saves the day.
-1Alsadius
Despite the fact that the rules of the exam specifically prohibited such?
9Gondolinian
They prohibited saying something too abstract, like "Harry comes up with a way to persuade Voldemort to let him out of the box." They did not prohibit actually figuring out a way to persuade Voldemort. By extension, it would also not be allowed to say "Harry comes up with a way to kill all the Death Eaters with magic." It just had to be specific enough.
0Alsadius

Voldemort doesn't want the world destroyed, and he just made Harry into a world-destruction-preventer. Pointing this out — and pointing out that Harry is now a better world-destruction-preventer than Voldemort could become — doesn't involve changing Voldemort's utility function.

(Voldemort can't swear an Unbreakable Vow akin to Harry's because nobody has trust in him that could be sacrificed to power it.)

7DanielLC
He didn't make Harry into a world-destruction-preventer. He only made Harry swear not to actively destroy the world. Also, while Merlin might think that with all the effort Voldemort went through to prevent Harry from destroying the world it would be easier to destroy the world with a piece of cheese, I wouldn't find that so comforting.
7MathMage
He doesn't have to be persuaded to be good, he just has to be persuaded to let Harry out of the box. If he lets Harry out of the box for non-good reasons, that still counts.
5Ander
The rules stated that we couldn't change Voldemort's utility function or turn him good, but his utility function already placed an extremely high value on not having the world destroyed, or losing his immortality. It was quite possible that the solution would have been to convince him that killing Harry would end the world, or that he required Harry in the future in order to save it. The Vow and the parseltongue both were valuable tools in convincing Voldemort of this.
3MarkusRamikin
Filibuster. /abg frevbhf
1hairyfigment
I'm surprised the Vow allowed Harry to do anything except talk to Hermione. I did worry that V would think of Harry triggering resonance by touching her. But I also thought the doom-sense would allow V to detect any spell whatsoever that Harry used.

Why are Hermione's robes red? Does Voldie want her to be Gryffindor?

0Ben Pace
I suppose she's the courageous hero.

I feel like the problem turned out to be unnecessarily easier than it had to, that too much of the credit is due to luck, and some things could've been done better (Death Eaters could be saved). It's somewhat of a theme with all these spells and rituals being performed in unique situations and working on the first try, with little precaution taken to test them or theoretical grounds to expect reliability. For example, Hermione still wasn't tested. It's the first resurrection ever performed, at least by the people present. It involved further effects that might've never been combined in this way before. The person who knows the details is now defunct. He didn't plan to test it either, for the primary use case intended. Hermione's brain is warm and might be losing information or she might get terminally sick soon, with brain damage. We just assume everything worked.

One problem is that Harry didn't know that he can remain conscious after directly casting a spell at Voldemort, so it should've been planned around, with the less direct transfiguration being plan A for rendering Voldemort unconscious. We now know that this might've failed (more likely than before Ch. 114), and there had t... (read more)

0BrindIf
Good points here. About the Time Turner, I thought there were wards against it. The stunning hex was a bet, but jumping on the Time Turner could have gone even wronger.
8Velorien
To clarify, Harry at one point was given a list of wards an inner-circle Death Eater would be expected to have prepared, which include anti-time-turning. We don't see Voldemort or anyone else cast such wards, so it's down to whether we think Voldemort has permanent versions around his sanctum.
[-]Shmi120

My criteria for whether a character acts smart or stupid is whether I can see a glaring issue immediately. Like many others, I had asked right after ch.113 "why does Harry still have his wand and his glasses"? And, sure enough. Whatever trope describes the villain suddenly going into the Stupid and Careless mode at a critical time, it sure applies here. LV probably broke a few rules from the Evil Overlord's list, too.

5kilobug
Dumbledore appeared much more wielding the "idiot ball" than Voldemort in this final arc. Voldemort initially needed Harry to have his wand for the Unbreakable Vow. Yes, it was a mistake to not remove the wand from him afterward. He couldn't imagine Harry would be a threat with a wand without being allowed to speak or move it, partial transfiguration of carbon nanotubes or antimatter from the wand itself just was unimaginable to him, so it's an understandable mistake, but it does strike as odd when compared to all the precaution he's taking in "paranoia mode".
3TobyBartels
The trope that describes a character (villain or otherwise) suddenly going stupid and careless is Holding the Idiot Ball. Which EY promised that nobody would ever do.
8Shmi
Still hoping for a plot twist which somehow justifies this apparent Villain Ball.

Wow, I was expecting more of a pure Talking His Way Out of the Box solution, instead of a partial transfiguration solution. I'm curious as to whether or not this is the bad ending. I do think Voldemort was a bit stupid to not just kill Harry instantly instead of quizzing him for the Powers He Knows Not. As he said himself, given an eternity of immortality it is likely he would stumble across everything Harry has read, thought, and figured out.

Next chapter should be up any minute now...

Edit: It's up.

5[anonymous]
Even if this was the good ending I want to see the bad ending.
3Bound_up
I would pay for Eliezer to write about the first Tom Riddle's experience under the Sorting Hat, before he had given up on being good, convincing the hat that he wouldn't go bad, etc.
1MarkusRamikin
^ Funnily enough, I was posting that when I saw your post.

A lot of people think that Voldemort was going too easy on Harry, making this a "Coil vs. Taylor in the burning building" violation of suspension-of-disbelief for some of them. I am considering rewriting 113 with the following changes:

  • Most Death Eaters are watching the surrounding area, not Harry; Voldemort's primary hypothesis for how Time might thwart him involves outside interference.
  • Voldemort tells Harry to point his wand outward and downward at the ground, then has a Death Eater paralyze Harry (except heart/lungs/mouth/eyes) in that position before the unbreakable Vow. This would also require a retroedit to 15 or 28 to make it clear that Transfiguration does not require an exact finger position on the wand.

[pollid:840]

I would add a reason for Harry to have the wand.

Like, instead of, "You will not raise your wand", "You will only raise your wand when and how I permit it. Do not demonstrate a spell unless ordered."

That would imply that Voldemort was open to the possibility that Harry might demonstrate something, which would require arming him.