Follow-up to: Gears in Understanding, Fake Frameworks

This last September, I experienced enlightenment.

I mean to share this as a simple fact to set context. I don’t claim I am enlightened, as though I have some amazing property that makes me better than people who don’t have it. I mean simply that there’s something vaguely like a state that our culture calls “enlightenment” that I’ve been in and have returned to a few times over the last four months. In Rinzai Zen one would say that I had a kenshō: a moment of understanding that makes the path clear but is not yet full attainment.

Over the last several months I’ve tried to share what I now see so clearly. And this has mostly just failed. People who’ve had a kenshō follow what I’m saying just fine, but most people just get really confused. It feels a bit like being one of the only people around who understand scientific thinking: most people can see that the behavior of a gyroscope is weird when you show them, but most can’t really see its behavior through the lens of scientific epistemology. They just keep translating what you’re saying into e.g. isolated facts.

This is particularly vexing in the case of kenshō because enlightenment isn’t an insight. I claim it’s not a matter of inferential distance. It’s more like bothering to notice what you already know. When the moment of seeing struck me, I fell over laughing and basically didn’t stop laughing for two days, because it was so incredibly stunningly obvious. There isn’t something to learn: it’s already always here.

And what is “it”, you might ask? Well, I would honestly love to be able to tell you. But apparently my saying it doesn’t convey it hardly at all, unless you’ve already seen it for yourself.

(And yes, there’s most definitely an “it”. This isn’t just brains getting flooded with feeling-of-profundity without an object. And it totally makes sense that some people think that. Just… from this vantage point, those objections come across a bit like people arguing that science is just another religion. Or more to the point, it’s like trying to convince me that I have no subjective experience: no matter how cunning and logical and well-researched the argument, I’m still here listening to you.)

With all that said, I think I can share something one meta-level up. I think the reason it’s hard to convey enlightenment in words can itself be conveyed with words. And I think doing so illustrates something important about epistemology. And with some luck, this might give me a way of pointing at what enlightenment is, in a way that can land.

So, that’s what I’ll aim to do here.


First, a parable.

Imagine you’re in a world where people have literally forgotten how to look up from their cell phones. They use maps and camera functions to navigate, and they use chat programs to communicate with one another. They’re so focused on their phones that they don’t notice most stimuli coming in by other means.

Somehow, by a miracle we’ll just inject mysteriously into this thought experiment, you look up, and suddenly you remember that you can actually just see the world directly. You realize you had forgotten you were holding a cell phone.

In your excitement, you try texting your friend Alex:

YOU: Hey! Look up!
ALEX: Hi! Look up what?
YOU: No, I mean, you’re holding a cell phone. Look up from it!
ALEX: Yeah, I know I have a cell phone.
ALEX: <alex_cell_phone.jpg>
ALEX: If I look up from my phone, I just see our conversation.
YOU: No, that’s a picture of your cell phone. You’re still looking at the phone.
YOU: Seriously, try looking up!
ALEX: Okay…
ALEX: *looks up*
YOU: No, you just typed the characters “*looks up*”. Use your eyes!
ALEX: Um… I AM using my eyes. How else could I read this?
YOU: Exactly! Look above the text!
ALEX: Above the text is just the menu for the chat program.
YOU: Look above that!
ALEX: There isn’t anything above that. That’s the top.
ALEX: Are you okay?

You now realize you have a perplexing challenge made of two apparent facts.

First, Alex doesn’t have a place in their mind where the idea of “look up” can land in the way you intend. They are going to keep misunderstanding you.

Second, your only familiar way of interacting with Alex is through text, which seems to require somehow explaining what you mean.

But it’s so obvious! How can it be this hard to convey? And clearly some part of Alex already knows it and they just forgot like you had; otherwise they wouldn’t be able to walk around and use their phone. Maybe you can find some way of describing it to Alex that will help them notice that they already know…?

Or… maybe if you rendezvous with them, you can somehow figure out how to reach forward and just pull their head up? But you’re not sure you can do that; you’ve never used your hands that way before. And you might hurt them. And it seems kind of violating to try.

So, now what?


Here’s one way I used to try to convey part of the “it” from my kenshō:

“I’m okay. You’re okay. Everything is fundamentally okay. Whatever happens, it will be fine and good. Even our worry and pain is okay. There is something deeply sad about someone dyingand their death is okay. Obliteration of humanity would be tragic, but the universe will go on, and it’s okay.”

After several attempts at this, I gathered that many (but not all) folk were translating what I was saying into one of two categories:

  • Some thought I was saying that nothing matters and that all outcomes are equally good.
  • Some thought I was claiming that you’ll feel good no matter what if you’re enlightened.

And… nope. Not even close.

But it makes sense that so many people had those interpretations. I mean, what else are they going to think when I say “it’s okay”?

The thing is, I don’t mean “it’s okay” as something to think. I mean it more like an instruction, like “look up” in the cell phone parable. Trying to understand the meaning is analogous to Alex posting a photo of their phone and then scrolling above it in the text chat.

Another way I could try to say the “it’s okay” thing is something like, “The world is real in your immediate experience before you think about it. Set aside your interpretations and just look.” The trouble is, most people’s thinking system can grab statements like this and try to interpret them: if you think something like “Oh, that’s the map/territory distinction”, then all I can say is you are still looking at your phone.

It seems that most people do not have the type of conceptual Gears needed to intellectually understand what enlightenment is about. But instead of hitting a “this falls outside the current system” alarm, their minds grab the most fitting conceptual bucket they have to what they heard and plop it in there. This creates an impression of understanding that actually blocks the ability to understand.

This is why zen sometimes uses koans. A koan is meant to give the student’s mind something to chew on that it cannot understand intellectually. The hope is that at some point the conceiving mind will jam, the student will see “it”, and then they’ll have the raw data they need for their mind to start building the new type of Gear. That’s kenshō.

…which makes it kind of frustrating when rationalists are so pleased with themselves for dissolving koans. Yes, very good, you figured out how to download a few apps that prevent me or others from easily sending you messages that jam your cell phone. And that’s good and worthwhile. But you are still looking at your phone. And now you’ve removed one way you can be directly shown this fact.


At this point I’ll try to say the meta-level thing plainly:

There is a skill, analogous to “looking up”, which one will almost certainly misunderstand if we use normal words or concepts for it. I need a handle for it, though, so I’m going to call it “Looking” with a capital “L”.

(And yes, it’s conceptually related to Seeing With Fresh Eyes. But if you think it is Seeing With Fresh Eyes, you will miss the point, because you’ll be attaching what I’m saying to ideas you’re familiar with instead of Looking. And if you object based on the claim that that’s what Seeing With Fresh Eyes is about… then please reread the previous sentence.)

As far as I can tell, you need this skill in order to bypass a particular kind of epistemic trap, where your methods of gathering information preclude the ability to get an entire dimension of data type. It’s an ontological version of confirmation bias.

Once you have any meaningful grasp of how to Look, you can use it to see things that prompt novel Gears in your understanding of the world. A lot of things that previously sounded kind of mystical or incoherent will suddenly change meaning and be made of obviousness to you. And some of them really, really, really, really matter.

Seeing these things will probably transform you, although it usually seems to feel more like realizing who you have always been and what has always mattered most to you. Your reflective priorities rearrange, you start caring in a different and deeper way, and most of the things you had previously been so stressed or concerned about stop mattering. You actually start to get what’s at stake and what’s worth doing.

And then you, too, can experience the hilarious frustration of trying to get others to Look.


So, how does one learn how to Look?

Well, that’s a damn good question. And people with varying degrees of enlightenment have been trying to answer it for literally thousands of years.

So, rather than pretending I have some great novel algorithm for this, I’ll add three notes that I hope will be helpful here.

First, for rationalists in particular, I think skill with switching freely between frameworks is really useful. That is not at all the same thing as Looking, but it sort of stretches a thing I usually find is rigid in rationalists in a way that blocks their ability to Look. If you’re always interpreting everything through Bayesian updating or decision theory or epistemic hygiene or whatever, you’re always interpreting, regardless of the validity of which tools you’re using. I claim that being able to put those tools down for a second is actually really helpful — and, I claim, it can help contextualize where those tools are actually useful.

Second, one clear thing I noticed when I first intentionally Looked is that everyone has bodhicitta. There’s an important way in which everyone is already enlightened, and “enlightenment” is simply a moment of someone remembering this fact about themselves. This is why people know to build beautiful monuments to honor lost loved ones, and to be respectful while in them, across vast cultural and religious belief differences. We already know. This is the “already know” of that small quiet part of us that nudges us to notice that we’re wrong while in a fight with a loved one. The skill of Looking is closely related to the skill of pausing our usual habit patterns and actually paying attention to our quiet, clear sense of knowing.

Third, my kenshō was deliberately induced. I think I understand the mechanisms behind how, and I believe I can convey them in a usable way. I plan to do so in an upcoming post.

Kenshō
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It is occasionally said to me,

"Have you considered meditation and buddhism? Enlightenment is really powerful."

This feels similar to saying

"Have you considered giving up a massive resource - one of your scarce slots for a life-long habit, a daily time-sink with week-long retreats - to Buddhist meditation? It supposedly makes you feel funny at the end, as though you've had a major epistemological insight (but you aren't able to produce corresponding output as a result)."

Given the amount of people offering me something like the above, my background skepticism is very high.

The thing that will most cause me to believe that kenshŌ is valuable for epistemology, will be some examples of things you have managed to do better as a result. If, for example, you wrote sequence of recognisably useful insights unrelated to enlightenment (example), and then afterwards told me that it was due to your having felt enlightenment, I'd consider that interesting evidence. But I do predict that I find your subsequent post not much evidence either way.

I will mention that I have some notion of a thing you might be pointing towards: I've experienced ontological updat... (read more)

Bemused exasperation here. I'm grinning as I write this. I wondered if this post would produce this kind of effect… and I hoped not, but it's not unexpected!

The thing that will most cause me to believe that kenshŌ is valuable for epistemology, will be some examples of things you have managed to do better as a result.

I'm not advocating trying for kenshō. You can't try for it in any useful way. That's not how it works. I honestly don't care whether I persuade anyone of its value, because it does not matter whether you try for it. Or rather, if it does matter, it does so by making you obsessed in a way that can actually block the seeing. So, there isn't really any good benefit to fighting with your analysis to try to persuade you of its value. That's all on you!

And I imagine that's frustrating. And I do apologize; I'm really not trying to be frustrating or vague here. It's just… well, see the entire opening post!

But to steelman your… hmm, mix of a request and a challenge: I receive you as wanting either for me to give you concrete things learning how to Look has done for me, or to admit I can't and retract the value of what I... (read more)

I'm not advocating trying for kenshō.

I don't have any particularly good ideas for what an alternative goal of this post could be, and would be interested in more elaboration on that. It definitely seems to me that the goal of the post is to teach something, and as is usually required for teaching, to motivate why the thing you are teaching is important. If this post is only for people who are already motivated to learn about the things you describe, then that's fine, but I did not get that sense from the way it was written.

8Valentine
I was attempting to illustrate an epistemic puzzle, and that there is a known solution, but it is hard to tell people what it is, which is itself part of the puzzle. It seems many folk are getting caught up in the puzzle instead of zooming out to the meta-level. Which is probably my fault: I still suspect there's a way I could aim my explanation at the meta-level that would bypass this confusion. But instead, we're myred in the confusion. Which is okay; I'm learning, and this whole set of comment threads is doing a beautiful job of illustrating the phenomena I was talking about! If nothing else I'll be able to use all this to clarify something useful later.

Upon reflection, I think maybe I can spell out the logic of what I was trying to focus on a little more clearly.

There’s this thing, ``flibble’’, that is super hard to understand. Some people come to understand it and can then talk to each other about it. But they can’t explain flibble to pre-understanding folk. There’s some kind of process that’s basically unrelated to the attempts to explain flibble that lets people suddenly get flibble.

It really doesn’t matter what flibble is. The curious thing from an epistemic point of view (to me) is that there seems to be a skill to getting flibble. It looks like it’s a very general “get my ontology to update when I have no damn clue beforehand what the update is” skill. That seems damn useful.

The problem is, that skill is just as subject to non-understandability as flibble is. Which means you need the skill to some extent in order to bootstrap.

I do not care what flibble is. I’m not trying to convince anyone of the value of flibble. I’m trying to point at this puzzle and note that it suggests a really huge goddamn hole in epistemology as we normally talk about it.

It just so happens that flibble, when properly understood, is exactly... (read more)

I want to address this response, because it fits a pattern I’ve seen a few times, which I think is an important aspect of this discussion. Here’s the pattern:

Example 1

“I’ve invented a fascinating new baking technique! With it, I have baked an amazing new cake!”

“An amazing new cake?! Sounds delicious! Could we have a taste?”

“No, I don’t want to talk about the cake, I want to talk about the baking technique.”

Example 2

“I’ve invented an amazing new programming technique! With it, I have developed an awesome new app!”

“An awesome new app?! Sounds cool! Where can we download it?”

“No, I don’t want to talk about the app, I want to talk about the programming technique.”

Example 3

“I’ve come up with a whole new way to write fiction! With it, I have written an incredible novel!”

“An incredible novel?! Sounds wonderful! Could we read it?”

“No, I don’t want to talk about the novel, I want to talk about the new writing method.”


But the only reason we might possibly care about your new baking technique is if it lets us bake amazing cakes. The only reason we might possibly want to hear about your amazing new programming technique is if let us make cool apps. And the only reason we might have to ... (read more)

I do think there are things in this general topic area that are worth understanding, but the original post and most of the comments have been pretty useless to anyone trying to understand who doesn't already. Some could even be seen as taunting people over their lack of understanding, which be perfectly frank, I find obnoxious. So I'll try to give a quick overview of how I understand this while hopefully avoiding those pitfalls.

Take something like learning to wiggle your ears, raise one eyebrow at a time, or whistle. These can't be explained in words, but words and other stimuli can make it more likely that you'll stumble onto the correct action. Innate aptitude is probably a factor, too.

If you think of your current level of happiness or euphoria (to pick a simple example) as the output of a function with various inputs, some of these inputs can be changed through voluntarily mental actions that similarly can't be directly explained in words and aren't obvious. Things like meditating long enough with correct technique can cause people to stumble across the way to do this. Some of the inputs can be changed about as easily as wiggling your ears, while others can be much more difficul... (read more)

This is one of the most useful comments in this thread; there’s not much to say in response to most of it, except “that makes a lot of sense, thank you”. So instead, here’s some commentary to a part of this that I object to:

Take something like learning to wiggle your ears, raise one eyebrow at a time, or whistle. These can’t be explained in words, but words and other stimuli can make it more likely that you’ll stumble onto the correct action.

You may not be able to explain how to do these things in words. But you can certainly explain in words what these things are (for one of them, you just did)! And certainly, if you wiggle your ears, raise one eyebrow, or whistle, that you are doing something unusual (and what you are doing) will be blindingly obvious, without you even needing to point it out.

And so it would be a perfectly unsurprising scenario, if you and I were having an ordinary conversation, and suddenly you whistled (suppose I have never heard anyone whistle before):

clone of saturn: whistles

Said: Whoa! What… what did you just do?? You just made, like, a weird sound!

clone of saturn: yeah, it’s called ‘whistling’

Said: Gosh! Can you do it again?

clone of saturn: whistles aga... (read more)

I like this comment because it's a relatively clear articulation of the central thing you seem to be frustrated about here, which is that you think that Val could show you the cake but is refusing to for some perverse reason that you can't fathom.

I think the cake analogy is a very poor fit for what's happening here. Everyone knows what a cake is. I don't have to teach you anything to show you a cake; I just show it to you and you've instantly understood that what you're looking at is a cake. This is very different from trying to show someone what "enlightenment" looks like, whatever that means. At a minimum "enlightenment" involves something screwy happening with ontologies, so there's no guarantee that you'll be able to "see" an example of "enlightenment" just by staying in your particular ontology.

Back to the cell phone world: Alex texts me demanding that I show him an example of what looking up looks like. What can I do? I can text him a picture of a person looking up from a phone. What's his referent for that? Other pictures he's seen, on his screen, of people looking up from their phones. Nothing he hasn't seen a million times, on his screen. Alex thinks the thing he is asking me to do is easy, and if he's right it's not in the sense that he thinks.

To the contrary; it seems very easy to show me ‘enlightenment’.

How? Well, just move down another level of meta: what is enlightenment good for? What does it let you do, in the real world? etc.—all the things I have been asking. Show us that thing! (Or, really, several such things.)

Having done this, you will thereby have demonstrated ‘enlightenment’, and can then proceed up to the meta-meta-level of “the technique you used to achieve enlightenment”.

Analogously, suppose what I claimed to discover was not a new baking technique, but a new process of culinary experimentation which might be used to discover new baking techniques.

So first you’d exhibit a cake, and we’d all have a bite and agree that it’s delicious. Then you’d show us a pie, and we’d all have a forkful and agree that it, too, is delicious. You would then bring out a tray of cookies, and we’d all have one and judge them to be delicious.

Then you’d tell us about the novel baking techniques you used in the process of baking the cake, the pie, and the cookies, respectively. We’d all be impressed (and would, at this point, have no doubt that the techniques work, as the taste of your delicious baked goods still lingered in our m... (read more)

3ChristianKl
Valentine did list things in the above comment that are fancy. The core reason why he didn't put that in the initial post is likely that most of the people who are experts at "teaching" this have strong beliefs against doing this and believe that it isn't helpful. According to that conception enlightment isn't about doing or more trying to do more but about doing less. If you give someone a fancy list they are going to try harder and as a result are less likely to make progress.

Valentine did list things in the above comment that are fancy.

As I say in another comment, Valentine has certainly told us all about how great the cake is. What he hasn’t done is provide us with any. All of his listed examples are benefits that are (a) self-reported, unverified, and possibly unverifiable[1], and (b) very, very vague.

[1] Though even third-party testimony, if sufficiently diverse and credible, would be a good start.

According to that conception enlightment isn’t about doing or more trying to do more but about doing less.

What does “doing less” mean, in this context? (And why might I want to “do less”?)

3ChristianKl
Would you say that he provided the ex with cake? If you take the person who looks at the cell phone that's an active act. I think "Look up" is a bit the wrong frame. It's more helpful to say "Stop focusing on your phone" (even if the person still has no concept for that). If the person stops focusing on the phone they start to notice things that aren't on the phone but that's not an active act. It starts happening when the person stop distracting themselves by looking at the phone.
6Said Achmiz
Sure. Of course, the problem there—from a “public epistemology” perspective—is that we only have Valentine’s word on this. Now, you may be tempted to indignation at this comment; am I calling Valentine a liar? But I have no need to do any such thing; quite apart from the possibility of knowing mendacity, there is the far thornier problem that what we’ve got is an account only from Valentine’s perspective—who knows how his ex sees things? What would they say, if questioned on the matter—especially in private? We don’t know. This, of course, is why I suggested that a diverse lineup of credible third-party testimonials might be of use (though not, by themselves, conclusive) in convincing us of the value of Valentine’s ‘attainment’ (as seems to be the proper term of art). (Certainly there is also the fact that when one engages in public seeking after truth, and public debate of it, a higher grade of evidence is often needed than simply “I did this amazing thing—just trust me”. Not always—sometimes one’s word suffices—but in such cases as this, it does not; we all know the old saw about extraordinary claims…) Re: your comments about “doing less”, and about why it’s unhelpful to list accomplishments or benefits: RainbowSpacedancer has provided a satisfying response, and I am inclined to agree with them (i.e., if you don’t tell me what the point of any of it is, then this is merely frustrating for me, and saying that it’s ‘unhelpful’ to explain to me why I should put in the effort is… well… unhelpful).
2dsatan
How is Val's first response to Ben not what you are looking for? For some actual cake, here's what it can give you, based on my experience of what it has given me: * An example: there was a philosophical line of thought originating from lesswrong about the nature of reality. Enlightenent will allow you to see how there is a discrepancy between the use of the word reality in accordance with this theory and the original use of the word. It will then allow you to actually look at what is going on, what is the nature of the original use, and what is the nature of the new use is, and see how that conversation went off the rails. It will show you how to come back to the start and stay grounded, rather than being stuck in a pragmatist metaphysical nihilism. And this is why "nothing is probability 1, therefore real things are all 'out there' in the inaccessible territory and these 'things' are just my experiential maps in my brain which corresponds to things in the territory" is mistaken, just a model, and subordinate to the fact that you already always have been in the world and this is necessarily a precondition of your doing philosophy. * You will see that "you are your brain" is false and "you are a product of your brain" is an extremely narrow model that is useful in only a very constrained context. You will see how "everything is made of atoms" is a similarly very narrow model. These models are both way overrated in their use, very overrepresented in communities like this, and very not fundamental. * Things like your personal bubble, which is real and just there, despite it "not being made of atoms" and it "being just something that your brain injects into your map", will not be invisible by default. You will gain handles on many fundamental parts of you that were previously hidden behind a theory that doesn't account for them or calls them unreal.

I must say I am perplexed by comments such as this. (Don’t get me wrong—I’m not singling you out in any way; this is only the latest in a pattern.)

In what world does any of what you wrote, there, constitute anything like: (a) concrete actionable knowledge or understanding; or (b) actual, real-world benefits?

It feels strange to do this, given how vague all of this is, but let’s try to tackle at least your first bullet point:

there was a philosophical line of thought originating from lesswrong about the nature of reality

To what line of thought to do you refer? Are you making reference to the concept of the “map-territory distinction”? Or something else?

Enlightenent will allow you to see how there is a discrepancy between the use of the word reality in accordance with this theory and the original use of the word

What is this discrepancy? Tell us about it!

It will then allow you to actually look at what is going on

And? What is actually going on?

what is the nature of the original use, and what is the nature of the new use is

So what are they?

and see how that conversation went off the rails.

Yes? And how did it?

It will show you how to come back to the start and stay grou

... (read more)

People tend to get exactly the quoted part out of the sequences somehow, not the rejection of it. I didn't explain it there because it takes a lot of writing to do so, but I will do it here.

The image we are given in the sequences, in map and territory and in epistemology 101, is that light hits a thing, reflects off of your shoe, hits your retina, a signal is sent down some optical pathways, and you experience seeing your shoe. Then, note that there are many parts of this pathway that can be interrupted. So you have the reality out there, and the person experiencing in there, and there is a fundamental disconnect between the territory out there, and the maps in the brain in there. Since there is always a chance for somthing interfering with that connection, nothing can be probability 1. From this you conclude that any thing that you experience is just some image your brain conjures up from sensory stimulus. Those things that you experience are not real, and are only maps of the actual real things out there in ineffable reality.

Looking allows you to see that the entire thing I just described is just a model - an image. In going through that whole thing, Look at how you are shri... (read more)

The image we are given in the sequences… [snipped]

It would be a drastic understatement to say that what you wrote in that paragraph is a ludicrous misunderstanding of what Eliezer wrote. I could call it a ‘distortion’, but it’s more like literally the opposite of what the Sequences say. (The part about probability in particular makes me question whether we read the same posts or, indeed, live in the same reality; suffice it to say that you certainly did not understand what was said in the Sequences about probability theory.)

The entirety of that section of your comment consists of setting up and then knocking down this frankly shocking strawman of Eliezer’s ideas; this is then mixed with a rather amateurish recapitulation of selected bits of Enlightenment-era and 20th-century philosophy (which have been beaten to death by generations of analytic philosophers—who, even in those cases where they haven’t solved these issues, have said some much more significant and useful things about them then you have). Most of it, frankly, is not even wrong.


In the second section, you take some facts about how non-verbal signals work in human social interaction—facts which are, no doubt, interes... (read more)

(comment continued from parent, due to character limit)

The final section is yet more of the mind projection fallacy. Phenomenology is interesting, and your contributions to it are… not novel, of course, but written in a clear enough way to be of interest to investigators. Yet you have again chosen not only to construct a bizarre ontology out of a combination of fairly straightforward phenomenological facts and what are apparently some highly-idiosyncratic-at-best elements of your mental experience; you’ve also gone on to make the again outlandish claim that none of it is discernible without your capital-letter skill.


Thank you for taking the time to write this. I mean that in all sincerity and wholly sans sarcasm; I appreciate it, as I know that responding to skeptical internet strangers is a mostly-thankless task. Few people would attempt to respond in so concrete a fashion (and indeed almost no one else has), so know that I very much value the effort that you took to respond, and the product of that effort.

That you have responded with enough specificity and detail for me to be able to draw satisfyingly (though not nearly totally) definite conclusions, is icing on the (sadly, only proverbial) cake. So, again: thank you.


P.S. I upvoted dsatan’s comment, as I very much endorse encouraging detailed, specific responses to critical inquiries, here on LW.

8dsatan
What I went through is what I've seen many people get from the sequences. While I'm knocking down a strawman (insofar as what Eliezer's vague writing actually pinpoints a single discernable position), it is a strawman that many people actually believe. There are people who literally say beliefs are the same thing as probabilities or probability distributions after having read the sequences. I would be interested in how you'd summarize it though. Yes, what I did was the same thing that a lot of enlightenment philosophers did, though sloppily since I've given you a quick and dirty argument. A lot of what they said is right. Analytic philosophers have mostly gone off the rails in the same way. There are some notable exceptions in the neopragmatist school, and late Wittgenstein, and probably a few other exceptions. I've had someone schooled in analytic philosophy be utterly baffled by me askng what the relation between his criterion for realness has to do with the act of holding up a spoon, looking at it and feeling it, and having the immediate impression if it being there, real, and in the world. It's stuck in ideas. Notice that a lot of what I'm doing is pointing at things. I'm not purely giving a chain of logical deductions. Since you seem philosophically inclined, go read Heidegger. As for your comments about the other two sections, look at my other comment with clarifications. I mean that you need Looking actually noticing the underlying phenomena of these things in the first place (not the associated behaviours, but the actual things) without having someone point them out to you. It's not necessary to analyze people's behaviour and body language or notice that in the first place. People have the implicit skill of actually dealing with personal bubbles and notice this idea of space, but that doesn't mean having a conscious awareness directed at the actual structure of the phenomena associated to it. People don't automatically have access to the handles that let t
6ChristianKl
The core dynamic here is: dsatan : Hey, via Looking I can see X, it is really cool Said Achmiz : I can't see X and it's absurd what you say about X. For dsatan personal bubble is likely as much of an abstraction as calling a spoon a spoon is an abstraction. You can directly experience the spoon by touching it or seeing it and you don't have any corresponding way to perceive the personal bubble. On the other hand, dsatan has that direct experience of the personal bubble. I personally had times where I had a clear direct perception of it. With that direct experience it feels as concrete as the spoon. It's likely not impossible to develop that perception without Looking but Looking makes it a lot easier to develop that perception.
1dsatan
A few points. The metaphysical nihilism I was referring to is taking the logical step of realizing that that image of a man in an image of reality is just a model, that everything you think of is just in your head, so everything is just a model. "real" becomes meaningless - dereferenced from any particular thing. Second, to be clearer about what actually requires Looking, you need Looking to some extent to understand what I'm doing in the analysis of reality (though I think I'm getting better at forcing people to Look so that they can understand it, but with regards to looking, that's like someone holding up your bike and guiding you along instead of you balancing for yourself). Looking is necessary to come up with such an analysis in the first place. Looking is not necessary to understand the personal bubble, or to understand action fields. Looking is necessary to see them for the first time without someone pointing them out to you, and is very helpful in analyzing their structure. (edit) Furthermore, a good chunck of people who read what I just wrote will be mislead as to what Looking is. The fundamental issue is that we are communicating in language, the medium of ideas, so it is easy to get stuck in ideas. The only way to get someone to start looking, insofar as that is possible, is to point at things using words, and to get them to do things. This is why I tell you to do things like wave your arms about or attack someone with your personal bubble or try to initiate the action of touching a hot stove element. (edit) Lastly, there is this so much to Look at. I am mostly Looking at Things, and The World. There is this whole realm of People which I have almost no experience Looking at and have only scratched the surface of with personal bubbles. Val is much more experienced at this, which is why he is able to do some of the things that he claims and I am not. It is also why I haven't actually tried to point at that sort of stuff. But it is still there,
9Said Achmiz
This turns out to be mostly addressed in my response to your other comment, so I don’t have very much to say here. I’ll comment only that as far as I can tell, you’re knocking down strawmen and solving problems that don’t exist. That those problems would not require any ‘Looking’ to solve even if they did exist adds insult to injury. Like, who has this “metaphysical nihilism” problem? Surely not anyone who has read and understood the Sequences (nor much of anyone else)… no doubt there are some people out there, who are confused in this particular way—but that’s true of almost any sort of confusion, no matter how silly. So if I don’t have the problem you cite, nor ever did have it, and can hardly even comprehend the confusion that would lead anyone to have it, what am I to think of your holding up your alleged solution to this non-problem as something which is unattainable without this particular unusual skill you vaunt? In any case—to reiterate what I say in my other comment: thank you for taking the time to respond; I really do appreciate it.
2dsatan
What is the metaphyiscal nihilism problem... Do you know the person Shminux? (edit) He's a lesswronger from way back. He avoids unsig "real", and "true", and things of that sort for this very reason. His catchphrase is "it's just a model". And I'm quite confident that you've misinterpreted or don't understand about 70% of what I've said, but your rejection is all "this is absurd" so it's hard to get anything to grab onto there. (Edit) the entirety of my response was a mistake. You've dratically missed the point of all that I've said, missed what I was doing and latched on to only the propositional content of those sentences that I wrote. Now you've taken this misunderstanding as licence to reject the whole thing.
1Said Achmiz
This seems important. Please elaborate! What were you doing? Wasn’t it “trying to answer my questions”, “saying things you consider to be true”, etc.? That’s what I usually assume people do, when they post comments in response to things I’ve asked. If you weren’t doing that, then (a) why on earth not, and (b) what were you doing?
9dsatan
a) I was saying things that I believed, but not all things you can do with words is to state true propositions. "Go wash the dishes" is not true. "Go to the kitchen and see what's in the sink" is also not true. That is a type error. There is also a sense in which "the thing in the sink is what I call a knork" is not true if "knork" is not a word used by anyone but the person who is telling you that that think is a "knork" - if there is no larger social context for that to contradict. That last one is what I'm doing with action fields. b) It was getting you to do things, and then pointing at the things that you subsequently experienced in doing those things. I'm trying to get you to have the realization that those things are things that are there. I'm also trying to get you to realize that those things are actually important. So for example, the personal bubble is a thing, which is just there in the same sense as chairs are just there, which (almost) everyone has, and (almost) eveeryone has an implicit understanding of in the sense that they know how to navigate personal space and they can understand when people are too close. But they don't stop and actually look at the thing which is the personal bubble itself and look at its experiential mechanics. To give you an understanding of what I mean by just there, I have to point. It is not an idea so I can't just tell you what it means, I have to get you to see it. Actually go and pick up an object somewhere around you (actually do this, don't imagine what it's like to do this). See how you have this immediate impression of how it being there, existing, in your hand. This immediate impression is what I mean by just there. Notice how it itself is not an idea that I can communicate to you in language. It's something that I have to get you to experience and then point to that experience. Back to the personal bubble, if you actually do the things that I said, which are designed to make the personal bubble come out an
5Said Achmiz
I understand, thank you. I believe I have gotten everything I could out of this thread. Your comments have been very valuable.
1dsatan
I really really don't think you have. And I really think that this interaction has been a net negative for you. You have not demonstrated at any point that you have understood me. You have, in fact, failed to engage with me at all save to dismiss what I've written out of hand and call it absurd. Do you realize how stressful this interaction has been for me? How I am putting myself out there and you just attack in poor faith? I don't really get the sense that you are even trying to understand me. This comment of yours makes me feel dismissed, as if you think I'm just some crazy person and you want to get away and ignore me but do so politely. I do not feel that everything has been said, that there are things I need to clarify. So I will: My critique of that train of thought originating from lesswrong comes in two parts. The first is interpretation, the second is turning inwards and looking at the gears of how that interpretation actually works and behaves in the mind. To look at what it actually does rather than just what it says. The interpretive part is this (slightly edited): That is the whole of the interpretive part. The rest is taking that whole interpretation as an object and look at what it actually does in the mind. Looking at the gears of the interpretation. If you think I've misinterpreted the sequences, then it is these two paragraphs here that you must talk about, not any of the rest, because the rest is not interpretation. The way to argue against the rest of that (given agreement about interpretation here) is to actually look at what it is doing in the mind and demonstrate that it is different from my account.
4Said Achmiz
I would be happy to take this conversation to another venue (public or private, at your option; I have a blog whose comments section we can use, or perhaps IRC; email is also an option). For various reasons, LW is not ideal for continuing this discussion.
2Bohaska
What was the result of your request for further communication outside of LessWrong?
4Said Achmiz
It was more of an offer than a request, but there wasn’t any result.
1meedstrom
If it helps, your explanations made perfect sense to me, like plain English.  So thank you for putting yourself out there; you gave me and others something to chew on.
1dsatan
(I wrote a comment and it disappeared. Hopefully it doesn't show up along with this one) How is Val's first response to Ben not satisfactory? But here are a few things that it's done for me: * Things like your personal bubble will not be invisible by default. Your personal bubble is real and just there despite it "not being made of atoms" and it "just being a thing your brain injects into your map". Looking will give you handles and sensors relevant to all sorts of different parts of you, like those handles and sensors relevant to controlling your personal bubble, feeling your personal bubble, and seeing and feeling other people's personal bubbles. Without it, you might be stuck in a theory that doesn't account for your personal bubble and it remains hidden, or it calls your personal bubble unreal and makes it hard to look at. As another example, the energy flows of feng shui are a perceptual primitive related to good movement and flows of attention. * There is a philosophical line of thougth originating on lesswrong which comes up with a certain notion of what reality is. Looking will allow you to notice that the use of the word "real" in accordance to this notion of real is very different from the original use of the word real. Looking will allow you to see what is actually going on in this new meaning of real, and see how it has gone off the rails. Looking will allow you to find your way back to the original meaning and keep you grounded in coming to a reflective understanding of the nature of realness so that you don't go off the rails again. And that's why "nothing is probability 1, therefore real things are all 'out there' in the inaccessible territory and these 'things' are just my experiential maps in my brain which corresponds to things in the territory" is just a model, mistaken, and is both subordinate and at odds with the fact that you have always already been in the world, and this fact is necessarily a precondition to your doing philosophy.
3Raemon
Quick meta note: neither comment of yours has disappeared, but once there are more than 100 comments in a post, they don't all render at first (because rendering more than 100 comments at once is a bit bandw idth intensive). You have to click the "load more" at the top of the comments to see your new one.
-2Qiaochu_Yuan
I think you aren't taking the cell phone world metaphor seriously enough. Moving down meta levels in this way will not help me explain anything to Alex about what looking up from his phone is like, except insofar as it involves doing "whispering into ear"-type stuff, which we've discussed elsewhere.

This seems like an odd reply. Suppose Alex were to ask what good comes of being able to do this “look up” thing, and you said “I can’t explain to you what looking up is”. Alex would see that as a non sequitur.

Similarly, suppose you launched into an explanation of your baking technique, and I asked you for a slice of cake. Does “serving you a slice of cake won’t help me explain the baking technique” make sense as a reply? It does not.

Where is the cake? Damn the explanations, man; show me the cake!

3ChristianKl
Making a photo of a cake and sending it to Alex doesn't help him to learn about the cake that he would see if he would look up. Alex might come up with a lot of arguments why he has much more beautiful pictures on his smart phone that look much tasty but that will be besides the point because cakes are for eating and not for looking at pictures of them.
5Muga Sofer
Looking up from your phone provides experimentally verifiable "superpowers" - you can, for example, communicate with other Lookers Up via invisible gestures without texting them. Telepathy! Maybe that's a flaw in the analogy. But Valentine does claim real-world benefits, such as superhuman insight into psychology (as do other people who describe themselves as enlightened.) Maybe those aren't "the point", but demonstrating them convincingly would go a long way towards convincing the rest of us that there is a point and we just can't see it. The Buddha himself didn't just say "trust me guys", he supposedly did a bunch of miracles using his enlightenment-granted powers.
-5Nickos Ventouras
-11Valentine

FWIW, this aptly describes my own adverse reaction to the OP. "I have this great insight, but I not only can't explain it to you, but I'm going to spend the balance of my time explaining why you couldn't understand it if I tried to explain it" sounds awfully close to bulveristic stories like, "If only you weren't blinded by sin, you too would see the glory of the coming of the lord".

That the object level benefits offered seem to be idiographic self-exhaltations augur still poorer (i.e. I cut through confusion so much more easily now (no examples provided); I have much greater reserves to do stuff; I can form much deeper pacts with others who, like I, can See the Truth.) I recall the 'case' for Ander's Connection Theory was of a similar type. But at least connection theory at least sketched something like a theory to consider on its merits.

There needs to be either some object-level description (i.e. "This is what Looking is"), or - if that really isn't possible - demonstration of good results (i.e. "Here's a great post on a CFAR-adjecent topic, and this was thanks to Looking.") Otherwise, the recondite and the obscurantist look very much alike.

9PhilGoetz
I theorize that you're experiencing at least two different common, related, yet almost opposed mental re-organizations. One, which I approve of, accounts for many of the effects you describe under "Bemused exasperation here...".  It sounds similar to what I've gotten from writing fiction. Writing fiction is, mostly, thinking, with focus, persistence, and patience, about other people, often looking into yourself to try to find some point of connection that will enable you to understand them.  This isn't quantifiable, at least not to me; but I would still call it analytic.  I don't think there's anything mysterious about it, nor anything especially difficult other than (A) caring about other individuals--not other people, in the abstract, but about particular, non-abstract individuals--and (B) acquiring the motivation and energy to think long and hard about them.  Writing fiction is the hardest thing I've ever done.  I don't find it as mentally draining per minute as chess, though perhaps that's because I'm not very interested in chess.  But one does it for weeks on end, not just hours. (What I've just described applies only to the naturalist school of fiction, which says that fiction studies about particular, realistic individuals in particular situations in order to query our own worldview.  The opposed, idealistic school of fiction says that fiction presents archetypes as instructional examples in order to promulgate your own worldview.) The other thing, your "flibble", sounds to me like the common effect, seen in nearly all religions and philosophies, of a drastic simplification of epistemology, when one blinds oneself to certain kinds of thoughts and collapses one's ontology into a simpler world model, in order to produce a closed, self-consistent, over-simplified view of the world.  Platonists, Christians, Hegelians, Marxists, Nazis, post-modernists, and SJWs each have a drastically-simplified view of what is in the world and how it operates, which always in
3Elizabeth
A+ to flibble analogy. I found this story about flibble much easier to understand and reason about than the OP.
3Ben Pace
Oh! If I followed you, that’s much clearer. Here’s some words that are wrong but I think close: Is that sort of what you meant? If not, I’ll tap out for now until your next post.
7Valentine
That is damn close, yes. The main point of contention I have is that I’m not trying to get people to experience enlightenment. I’m trying to have people notice that the fact that (a) enlightenment is a real thing and (b) they can’t understand it via explanations, indicates something really damn important about limits in the kind of epistemology we normally talk about here. And, it looks like Looking is a way of patching those limitations. So it seems worth considering.
9Ben Pace
Right. I'll repeat (in advance of your follow-up post) that while it's interesting to note that I can't understanding enlightenment via explanation (and that englightenment is a real thing), this is still not enough to suggest that it's worth exploring - even if it helps me understand other things like enlightenment. For example, there are many deep skills where the experience of the skill is not amenable to communication via text, yet the skill and experience are definitely real. As someone who has studied classical music for a decade, I'm not able to convey the experience of playing a Bach prelude to you via text. I can imagine similar things for great sports players, or other experts. This alone doesn't (I think) suggest anything too important about epistemology. I await your next post with evidence about why Looking does have something important to say about epistemology!
7Valentine
Well… your epistemic state makes sense… *sigh* Two points: * The analogy breaks down because you don’t need to be able to play a Bach prelude in order to listen to someone else playing it. What would it be like, for you, if that were the world we were in? Can you imagine what it would be like to try to convey to pre-music folk even that music is real and that it might be worth learning how to listen to it? And if that were something you could readily see about how people cannot see something that is so obviously real to you… wouldn’t that cause a more general worry about the epistemic state of the species? For that matter, how would you come to notice things like music that YOU can’t yet understand this way? * The next post isn’t about evidence about why Looking has something important to say about epistemology. It’s a model of how I have done several things like reach kensho, and the model has been refined as a result of what I’ve come to see as a result of Looking. So, I don’t think you’re going to find it scratches that itch. I expect the parts that I can convey that came from Looking won’t themselves seem like they require Looking, so the fact that I had to transcend my own epistemic state to get there won’t be visible. Alas.
3Rudi C
This analogy is capturing my current understanding of this post and its various comments pretty well: Looking is like music, in that it is a difficult, voluntaryish act of observing and manipulating hidden mental states. This will result in wireheading, among other things, but it might be sometimes useful. (Note that music is also wireheading, but it can still be useful in narrow contexts.)
7Valentine
Cool. FWIW, I've come to think that wireheading is an anti-concept as applied to humans. It's one of those "presume the conclusion" type mental movements. In practice it seems to act like a back door for arguments based on belief residue like the Protestant work ethic / "pleasure is sinful" stuff. (A little more concretely: It makes sense to talk about some system engaging in wireheading only when there's a goal imposed from outside the system. It's like glorified Goodharting. But if the goals come from within the system, it stops being clear what "wireheading" means. On the inside it might feel like "Oh, I just found a vastly easier way to get what I want — and what I want wasn't what I thought I wanted!" Without an external evaluation criterion, that actually just becomes correct.) With that said, I think I intuit what you mean by calling music and Looking "wireheading". I don't mean to dismiss that. Stuff like, if you meditate enough to get Great Insights™ such that you don't bother to eat food anymore and you die, that seems like a pretty dramatic failure and kind of throws those "insights" into question.
1Rudi C
An interesting fact came to my mind; music that affects one's mental state is forbidden in Islam. Perhaps the reason this theme of "sinful pleasure" keeps repeating is the observation that pleasure is a reward signal that does not quite match the utility functions of the conscious mind. At least, that has always been the key motivator of this idea subspace to me.
2Chris_Leong
I'm confused. From your description, I thought that Looking was the same thing as Enlightenment, but now you're saying you only care about convincing us about Looking, not "enlightenment"?
5Kaj_Sotala
Looking isn't enlightenment, it's a practice for getting there (and getting to enlightenment isn't the only thing that you can use it for).
2Elo
Best mapped in the very dense book, "pointing out the great way". One path to enlightenment is to provide a moment of pure clear seeing (a state of mind) and align the rest of the mind with the path back there. Then let the result play out.
2Chris_Leong
What do you mean by "pure clear seeing"?
2Elo
(Context - Digging up a 5 year old post...) The idea of pure clear seeing, is a momentary state of experience which ... wait I said this above. Maybe it's a bit like finally "getting" a math equation.  It seemed confusing for a while, then it seemed to not make sense, and then clear seeing ... at least in the mental understanding sense.  In my experience, the subjective sense of "pure clear seeing" extends from literal visual stimuli appearing sharper and vivid, through emotional clarity, to mental constructs being sharp and vivid in the mind's eye as well.

I appreciate you writing the list of examples, but also don't find them currently particularly compelling, mostly because they are hard to verify from my current perspective (which is fine and the real value might just be hard to communicate).

-9Valentine
9habryka
This seems like a reasonable request, and if the value of mathematical/algebraic reasoning had not been presented to me, I would have not invested as many hours as I have into learning math. I think, though I haven't tried too much, it's at least in principle not that difficult to explain the value of mathematical proof to new people: Either give them a bunch of false proofs and let them deal with the confusion, or give them any of the dozens of exercises in Thinking Physics (which are themselves pretty well-motivated) and highlight how an understanding of mathematical proof would help them solve the problems. I am interested in being given a concrete problem, of the nature that Thinking Physics provides, that I could solve more easily with the tools/perspective you describe.
5Valentine
I'm a bit frustrated with you, Oli. I don't think you're engaging with the hypothetical in good faith. A huge portion of my math teaching experience was with preservice elementary and middle school teachers. These were people who would come to my math class as part of a program to get a credential, because they like kids and want to teach kids. And most of them are at best bored of math. They really didn't get proof. Proofs were a kind of social ritual. Conveying to them what the value of proving is was not on the table; they did proofs in order to navigate being graded. The only way I was able to get them to engage meaningfully with math was to point out to them that their knowledge of math and good math teaching would impact their students. I'm guessing most of your math teaching experience is with UC Berkeley student caliber, yes? Of course you can convey proof to someone like that. Or someone like you. If you imagine you're in a world where the people around you are more gruff mechanic types, or caring "people-oriented" types, etc., who don't understand what analytical thinking is… then you'll find yourself in the position I'm talking about. Giving them Thinking Physics type problems won't work because they won't engage with them. After all, you haven't convinced them of the value of proof-based thinking! You have to show them something that they consider practical. Please work with me here, Oli. I know you're smart enough not to have needed me to spell out all of the above. Please turn off the "I must show my rational analysis skills by coming up with a sharp counterargument to literally everything" stuff and actually try to see my point? I like that question. It's a tricky one, because knowledge of physics isn't enough to generate Thinking Physics type puzzles. Likewise, I don't know if I can give you a good puzzle for Looking off the top of my head. I'll think on that and see if I can come up with something. Though I warn, even if I do come up with som

Yes, I don't think it is possible to convey the value that "understanding proof" provides to everyone. But even for someone who cannot easily understand, asking to be shown the value is a very reasonable response, and if they cannot be shown the value, it makes sense for them to not spend their time learning mathematical proof. Trying to teach them proof, without them seeing any value in it, seems doomed to failure.

I can imagine being in a world where it is similarly hard for me to understand the value of kensho. But in that world the necessary first step for me learning, is to be motivated to learn. As I said, it seems fine if the target audience for this post is not me. And it seems plausible, though obviously sad to me, that my mind is shaped so that I can not understand the value without spending dozens of hours on good faith on following your argument along. And if you continue writing this post-series, I will try to seriously engage with the things you are describing, even without seeing the value directly, because I do think you have some interesting perspectives and this whole area might have some value in it.

What I am trying to say is that for the goal of ... (read more)

[-]Ruby180

I think that a) Val has obtained a real and valuable skill, b) Oli is engaging in good faith and making a reasonable request, and c) that there is a type of post that Val could conceivably write which Oli would find satisfactory.

I hope to eventually prove this by achieving enough skill in this area myself (making the assumption I'm correct in understand what Val's skill is), obtaining the value, and then conveying this in a convincing manner such that anyone reasoning as Oli does is motivated by my case.

[-]Ruby340
Appreciation for you, Ruby. :-)
I’m honestly flummoxed about how to create the type of post you’re suggesting. Given the clarity of everything else you’ve written here about this, I’m inclined to believe you. And I’d much like to write that post, or see it written. Any pointers?

Thanks! Okay, some pointers :) You asked for them!

Your writing style is characteristcally evocative - the kind of writing I'd use to point at the majesty of stars, the tragedy of death, and the grandeur of all that could be. It's emotional, and that is perhaps both its strength and its weakness.

You have the right style to conjure strong feelings around things one already believes and endorses (perfect for Solstice), but perhaps less so to convince people of things they're skeptical of. A pastor's rousing sermon about Jesus's love for all mankind, while moving to his congregation, does little to convince me about the matter.

Attitude

Unfortunately, it seems that people who don’t know how to intentionally Look literally cannot conceptually understand what Looking is for . . .

I emphatically reject this. You've observed that you don't feel understood when you explain your experie... (read more)

[-]Ruby180

One more pointer - clarity on the purpose of a post is paramount. From your comments, it seems like a few different purposes got mixed in:

a) Kensho/Looking are very powerful, I want to motivate you to try them.

b) There is a puzzle around communicating things which you can only conceptually understand once you've experienced them. (I'd focus mostly on the puzzle and make it clear Kensho is but an example in this post.)

There's a dictum: "1) Tell them what you're going to tell them, 2) Tell them, 3) Tell them what you've told them." Going by your CFAR classes too, I feel like you don't like telling people what you're going to tell them (you even want them to be confused). I think this unsurprisingly results in confusion.

Thanks, this is clear and appreciated.

I do feel some exasperation. You’re right in picking up on that.

My experience is that even when I’m not exasperated, this doesn’t convey to people who haven’t done any Looking. I don’t mean that as a judgment against anyone; it’s just a really strong phenomenon, and I think it’s getting conflated with my frustration.

But I’ll take your push-back seriously and reflect on this.

Thanks. :-)

5ChristianKl
Even if the believe that Valentine has actually got those extreme benefits that's going to make them believe that Valentine is doing something special and not something very basic. In New Age circles you have plenty of people who believes in the magical powers of enlightment and who spent years searching for it with nothing to show for it. The openness about making extreme claims is one of the key differences that distinguishes New Age thinking from other spiritual traditions and the empiric results of it are poor.
4Valentine
Appreciation for you, Ruby. :-) I’m honestly flummoxed about how to create the type of post you’re suggesting. Given the clarity of everything else you’ve written here about this, I’m inclined to believe you. And I’d much like to write that post, or see it written. Any pointers?
3Valentine
I didn’t say, or think, that Ben’s response was unreasonable. I was trying to illustrate via analogy why giving him what he was asking for was going to be extremely hard. I also wasn’t trying to convince Ben, or anyone else, to seek kensho or do meditation or anything of the sort. I had hoped that the self-reference of the problem would encourage some people to want to learn to Look, which is why I gave some guidelines at the end for going in that direction if one wants. Unfortunately, it seems that people who don’t know how to intentionally Look literally cannot conceptually understand what Looking is for, so if y’all need that before you’ll try (which is understandable but still kind of frustrating from over here), then I guess you ain’t tryin’! …at least, not consciously as a result of this post.
0ChristianKl
>"actually try to see my point?" How do you think that would help? :P
3Valentine
I think what I was trying to say doesn’t require Looking to understand. The analogy of conveying the value of proof should make sense even if what it’s analogous to doesn’t. My frustration with Oli there was about him arguing with the analogy rather than using the analogy to try to understand what I was saying. This is a communication problem I’ve had with him in person too, so I was hoping to cut through the whole process by pointing at the meta-level of the communication and saying “Come on, man.”
7RainbowSpacedancer
I understand where you are coming from. Efforting blocks realisation and kenshō doesn’t come from discursive thought - those are common traps. This is good advice for the experienced meditation practitioner. The practitioner that has already seen the benefit practice brings and has the momentum built up to carry them through difficult periods. Further effort and analysis blocks progress after a point. The typical lesswronger is a beginner and needs the exact opposite advice. Kenshō needs to be advocated for because they need a reason to practice instead of doing something else. And they need to know that trying for it is useful so that they can establish the right discipline and mental habits.
2ChristianKl
You don't need to speak about Kenshō to talk about the value of meditation. You can advocate for taking up a meditation practice with arguments that are much simpler and that are about less time investment.
5Ben Pace
Ah, yes, I didn't respond to you as the person I know and have a relationship with in my comment. I regularly find it hard to connect online commenting to the person I'm responding to, and I think my comment does read as weirdly challenging. Sorry about that Val. Nonetheless, there are important trade-offs against being social on a place like LessWrong - for example, I don't want to take up the time of the hundreds of people who read the comments, and in general, I won't be having a lot of social discussion in the comments. For example, I've just cut from this comment two paragraphs of my thought processes that wrote such an impersonal original comment (will send you them privately). I just spent a while not talking about anything in your post, so I'll finish and not write more comments here (if you want Val, I'm happy to discuss this more offline). I'll now write an object level response to your comment :-) Added: I might not, it's 6am here. I should really sleep soon.
4ChristianKl
I'm at the moment wondering a bit whether I have what you are pointing at. What you are saying doesn't feel strange to me at all. I can conceptually relate to most what you wrote. I have no problem holding space in the way you describe where I don't suffer. On the other hand, I'm filled with various unresolved stuff that drains energy. I remember commenting in the post you wrote about grief on LW about the day I processed the fact my father died. When I'm faced with strong emotions and there's no other way to deal with them, I'm forced to go to that mental state ;) but on a daily basis I frequently distract myself in various forms. As far as interpreting the reaction of most people to your post happens to be, I don't see it as showing that the post isn't effectful. If it's effectful than my general model of how things in this nature are learned suggests that it will take months or years for readers to understand. It's plausible that in 6 months someone who read this post now goes: "Ah, I think that's what Val meant back then". That's just the time frame this takes. People being confused at first is a good sign and the fact that rationalists don't like that state of mind and comment accordingly is no sign that anything went wrong.
3Valentine
Sounds to me like you have “it”. …with the very slight caveat that there are lots of different things one can Look at, once one knows how to Look at all. And that one can get better at Looking, and thus better at coming to understand things that were falling outside of one’s ontology before. So I don’t know whether you and I see all the same things as a result of Looking. But it sounds to me like you know something about Looking at all… which fixes the hardest part of the communication gap. :-)
0lawrence-wang
The fact that you recognize you have unresolved stuff that drains energy is actually evidence in favor of you having what Val is pointing at. It's much better than being completely unaware of it or believing that it's just how the world is.
2ChristianKl
I'm not trained in a Buddhist tradition but have gathered my experiences about elsewhere. I have a lot of mental model for various related phenomena. I have had a meditation experience after which I thought: "I think I have experienced the phenomenological basis on which karma is build." but I never had a proper Buddhistic teacher. Getting your mind "clean" is an essential part of the Buddhist way and my mind is at the moment anything but "clean". Take the mental state of presence that Buddhist monks who have meditated very long have where they don't have the startle response (besides the Buddhist monks psychopaths also often don't have the startle response). You need a certain level of mental cleanness for that, that I don't have. Given what I knew about Val before his development before his enlightment experience, I think it's plausible that Val has this. From my perspective it's plausible that this is part of what Val means with Kenshō. While we are talking about this. There's a concept of the "distinction of completion" that I think comes from the Landmark Forum. If anybody here was at the Landmark Forum and can talk in their language I would be very interested in talking.
3crybx
I'm late to this comment thread. I had to read a lot of the comments (more than once) before it clicked in a way that I'm fairly sure *I recognize what Looking is* and that I already have the skill and use it more than I think is common (but not always or consistently). "I can form deep, deep pacts with others who know how to Look. This is harder to explain, but I can point to an analogy clearly, I think: if you're in the cell phone world and you see someone else who has figured out how to look up, there's a kind of deep collaboration you two can do, and a level of communication you can have, that others literally cannot understand pre-kenshō. In the real-world analog, this creates room for a kind of bond that lets us sidestep most primate political baloney, because there's common knowledge that we can both Look at all that stuff, and that that's not what's important." Now that I have a name/concept-shape for this "skill" of Looking, that paragraph brings up a lot of feelings of longing for me. These bonds are what I've rarely experienced and what feels to me like what I want out of interpersonal relationships. It's like most people aren't awake, or are NPCs, and it gets lonely. Occasionally finding bits of these bonds is enormously rewarding. Some comments ask questions about how you can know if someone else is "looking up from their phone." They want real world examples. I think you can't know if someone is doing the real-world analog of "Looking up from their phone" if you don't interact with them on a level beyond small talk or polite conversation. You won't pass a stranger on the street and just see it. Looking is a frame of mind, so if you don't interact with their mental processes, there's nothing to see. My personal examples of knowing someone else is Looking are composed of very private conversations that are, like I said, beyond small talk or polite conversation. I don't want to get specific, but I can give a vague example interaction: Imag
3Said Achmiz
Re: “it’s okay”: Can you say what it would mean for ‘it’ to not be ‘okay’? (This has been asked already in another thread, but I have not seen an answer.) In other words, “it’s okay”… as opposed to what? Or, to put it yet another way: I—as far as I know—do not have this ‘Looking’ skill that we’ve been hearing about. I have certainly never meditated, experienced enlightenment, taken hallucinogenic drugs of any sort, or done anything else which might trigger “non-symbolic experiences” of a similar sort (to use the terminology from the paper linked elsethread). However, I also don’t find myself “freaking out”, “moralizing reality”, or otherwise having any sense that ‘it’, or things-in-general, are “not okay”. Should I? What am I missing? Edit: To add yet another rephrasing of my question: presumably, you have gained this skill of ‘Looking’ at some point, prior to which time you did not possess it. What, exactly, was “not okay” before that, and how?
1crybx
I would not personally use the phrases "it is/things are/whatever is okay." But one way reacting like "it's not okay" could look is the instinct to make reality retrospectively not be how it is. Denial. We can affect the future, but there's no use denying what already is. If the first thing you do is interpret that new info would make the world a bad place (moralizing reality), you may flinch into rationalizing ways it can't be so before you even notice what you did. I don't claim that I gained this skill of ‘Looking’ at some point, prior to which time I did not possess it. I claim I am recognizing a concept shaped thing that I already did more than average, and am now labelling it with the name Looking. I think I've gotten better over time and now that I label it, I think I could practice more deliberately. If I'm totally wrong, there's still this thing I think I could practice because I'm labelling it now. I think people are hung up on the meditation/enlightenment idea. It's not the skill. It's an old fashioned way to practice. I think the paper being linked is going to confuse more people than it helps. It is super basic and not as otherworldly or profound as people seem to expect it to be. Edit: I don't mean to say it's basic, so you should already understand. I mean to say it's basic, and you're looking for something complicated. Like maybe you are rejecting or will reject the answer even if YOU think of it, or already do Looking, because it's just not an impressive complicated thing. You've invested a lot of effort in understanding this concept, and I wonder if the realization, when/if you get it, will be disappointing. Maybe it will be a relief though.

I may have a better answer for the concrete thing that it allows you to do: it's fully generalizing the move of un-goodharting. Buddhism seems to be about doing this for happiness/inverse-suffering, though in principle you could pick a different navigational target (maybe).

Concretely, this should show up as being able to decondition induced reward loops and thus not be caught up in any negative compulsive behaviors.

6Said Achmiz
What is “the move of un-goodharting”?
6romeostevensit
noticing what candy crush is doing.
7Raemon
FYI, I think if I didn't already have a sense of what you were pointing at, this comment wouldn't help much.
8Ruby
I don't think you need to approach meditation as a wager of vast resources for a gain obtained only at the end. My experience is that a modest amount of meditation, properly approached, has offered me substantial benefits. My recommendation is to spend a modest number of hours trying meditation out, and use the information obtained to judge whether or not it is worth further investment. I have some detailed models of what meditation accomplishes and why, and I hope to write about them eventually. Till then, I'm happy to chat. I'd also recommend the Science of Enlightenment by Shinzen Young; definitely heavy on the grand promises, but he offers more models of what's going on than most texts.

Thanks for the offer Ruby. I've done a little bit of meditation (0.5-2 hours, 5-10 times) and think it may have given me a better phenomenological sense of my own focus and awareness, and slightly more control over it.

However, the improvement seems very low cost-effectiveness compared to the similar improvements in focus and awareness of my cognition I get from doing long stretches of math - noticing which strands of my mind think different things are useful to think about and focus on. I also find that most of the low-hanging fruit in improving my attention came from a CFAR class I had (that Val taught :-) ) about how removing drains on your working memory has increasing marginal value, and how to design your life environment accordingly (analagous to how rationality training on humans is very weak relative to being able to set up economic incentives to do well). This has helped me a fair bit, I think.

Regarding the practice of meditation, I'm currently at a level of skepticism where (I think) the only thing that will persuade me to do a bunch more will be someone doing something I personally regard as remarkable, and then telling me they believe it was causally due to their having done lots of meditation. It honestly just doesn't seem worth the time.

As I said, I'm very happy to read examples of people having accomplished impressive things, and then crediting it to the practice of meditation. Such examples will gradually move my credences up.

3jacobjacob
Tim Ferris says some kind of meditation is one of the most common habits he finds in the people he interviews (regardless of whether it's actually listening to a Headspace episode, or a runner just repeating the very same song throughout the entire 1h run). E.g. this (haven't read, took me 5 sec of googling, but seems fine). Also Ray Dalio says transcendental meditation is one of the key things that enabled him to cope emotionally with making mistakes and being wrong, and then building principles for never making the same kinds of mistakes again. He writes about that in Principles and talks about it here.
3Ruby
Glad to hear you've given it a decent shot. That being the case, I think it is pretty legitimate for you to not invest further time. I do think that meditation/mindfulness can offer things not obtainable via the alternatives you listed, but I don't think I could make a successful case for it briefly. My only remaining recommendation would be, if you haven't, to spend some time meditating with a focus on your sensations and emotional state, instead of the more typical breathing. I especially recommend it when experiencing stronger emotions. But I suppose I'll just have to go off and do some remarkable things!
3Ben Pace